Are prog fans Musicians? [Archive] - Aural Moon

moses

07-08-2004, 01:42 PM

I postulated the same thing at one point at a ProjeKct Two concert, looking at the very diverse crowd with a wide range of ages, hairstyles, etc. It's not like a Phish concert where you get hippies and college kids who want to be hippies but drive their parents' Audis to shows.

(All this is greatly generalized, of course.)

I do like to call myself a musician. Like Yesspaz, I play guitar and bass. Primarily guitar, but I can fake it on bass half decently. If pressed, I can play a little bit of piano/keyboards, but only enough to get myself in trouble with someone who actually knows what they're talking about on the instrument. Given a week or two of preparation time, I could probably pull out the old trumpet and play you a nice tune on that, but as it stands I've got languishing lips.

Rick and Roll

07-08-2004, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Yesspaz
during a particularly difficult Don Caballero piece where the band was being purposefully dischordant

don't you mean difficult on the ear????

There are bands that I think are fun when discordant (such as Sleepytime Gorilla Museum or Primus) but for the most part it's annoying as hell.

The percentages of "musicians to non-musicians" would by definition be the same under any genre. The only exception is pop music, which would have more non-musicians by virtue of being more popular among the mainstream.

I take exception greatly to the premise that the more difficult the music is, the more you have to be a musician. I have not seen that in my many concert and other listening experiences.

Also, if you're at the opera, no one's going to walk up to you and say, "I sing opera and it was a decent show", but you will get at a prog show "man I play and that keyboard riff on the Triumphant Battle of the Spider Bitches excerpt part Seven was weak"! It just seems these prog-nerds are more prevalent.

Finally, I am a rock and roll fan before prog. I don't like prog because it's more difficult, only because it sounds good.

Musician? I played brass instruments in high school and can play a mean Black Sabbath on the piano, but I can't play anything else. What I do have is strong ear for musical content and a lot of memory space alloted for such things.

Wojtek

07-08-2004, 02:39 PM

If we call musician a person who plays for fun only in the secluded spot of his own room then yes, I am a musician. :D Keyboards player and composer.

Yesspaz

07-08-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
I take exception greatly to the premise that the more difficult the music is, the more you have to be a musician.
I take exception to that premise too. It is not the premise of my question. The premise is, "I bet that someone who is a musician or has studied music is more likely to listen to prog than someone who has never studied music or is not a musician."

Also, we've had two people who said "not musician" and no votes for "not musician." Don't forget to vote :)

Eating Lemur

07-08-2004, 06:23 PM

I've been playing the electric guitar for almost four years, and I also fool around on the keyboard sometimes.

QuantumJo

07-08-2004, 10:06 PM

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I have not played a musical instrument since high shool. When I did I played Trumpet, Baritone, Sax (Tenor & Alto).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RogorMortis

I've never had a guitar in my life. Plus the problem I'm lefthanded.

That never stoped Jimi

Still dont have this Quote thing figured out yet :rolleyes:

podakayne

07-08-2004, 10:28 PM

my only instrument would be the vocal chords which i exercise constantly...i've been told i have perfect pitch, sang all through hs...but i'm sure that's gone now...

my dad, as some of you know, played jazz trumpet with some of the best wayyy back in the day, both traditional and later years latin, he also played piano and drums. alas, he taught his girls naught :(, but first cousin Corky McClerkin can be found in the AMG and gives my dad full credit in his bio.

and if i were to play an instrument it would be the violin.

as stated by one Moses
I could probably pull out the old trumpet and play you a nice tune on that, but as it stands I've got languishing lips.

don't know why but that statement had me on the floor with laughter.:cool:

Bob Lentil

07-08-2004, 11:00 PM

I like to consider myself a musician. I play guitar, trombone, and a little bit of keyboard. I've pretty much retired from playing trombone, though, because my trombone is ready to die, and after graduating from college I don't have a band to play in.

I also have this cool Snoopy jaw harp, but I don't like playing it, because it hurts my teeth.

Eating Lemur

07-09-2004, 12:57 AM

Yes, they do make left-handed models for many of the most popular guitars. As Jimi did, he would simply put the strings on the guitar in the opposite order and flip it around, though where to put the strap might become an issue if you want to play that way. In addition, many accoustic guitars are perfectly symetrical, so it wouldn't matter anyway.

Yesspaz

07-09-2004, 01:36 AM

The only thing about playing a right handed guitar flipped as a lefty is the pick guard is in the wrong place, especially important on acoustics if you want them to stay in great condition. Also, lefty guitars can sometimes be more expensive than right handed ones. I don't really think that's fair, but I guess it's because they are harder to make, being that a lot of guitars are hand-made.

Eating Lemur

07-09-2004, 02:40 AM

I guess people like the craftmanship, but my uncle, who is a dedicated Carvin fan (he turned me into one as well), seemed to think that their necks and bodies were really something. "You know how they do it?" he asked, "They use machines!" ;)

Either way, you are probably right about them being more expensive, but, for me, the pick guard has never really been that big of an issue. I guess it really depends on your technique, but my current electric (a BC Rich Warlock) has no pickguard whatsoever, and there seems to be no wear (I guess I just don't hit the body when I strum).

KeithieW

07-09-2004, 02:57 AM

how many Bass players are left handed???????

As for playing musical instruments. I can't play a note really but I do own a Fender Strat and a Marshall amp which, as regular shouters/chatters will know, I occaisionally plug in and massacre songs that are playing on the Moon. I'm left handed but "play" the guitar right handed. I can play golf left or right handed (my best score on a public course is 130 over par....maybe I CAN'T play golf left OR right handed).

How can you tell if a keyboard player is playing left handed..........just a thought!

Yesspaz

07-09-2004, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Keith Waye
How can you tell if a keyboard player is playing left handed..........just a thought!

Heh, nice.

I had a friend growing up who was ambidextrous in the true sense of the word. He threw a baseball right handed, but batted left. Shot basketball right handed, but wrote left. Show a bow right handed and a shotgun left. Ate with his right and bowled with his left. Weird.

Eating Lemur

07-09-2004, 03:35 AM

Say, what sorts of equipment does everyone use? Keith's mentioning of his strat and Marshall amp made me curious to see what kind of instruments/equipment all the musicians own. Here is my list:

Guitars:

Squier (by Fender) Bullet [black] -- my first guitar (it was cheap)
BC Rich Warlock, Bronze Series (single-humbucker) [black] -- my secound and current guitar (it was discounted)
Johnson accoustic [blue] -- pawned off a friend for $30 (don't play it much)

Keyboard:

Casio CTK-150 -- dinky, bottom-of-the-line keyboard inherited from my deceased grandmother

Amps:

Optimus MPS-45 -- my first amp (puny bugger, not grounded properly)
Carvin SX-300 -- my second and current amp (very sweet), a graduation gift from my uncle

Pedals:

BOSS TU-2 Chromatic Tuner
Digitech XMM Metal Master -- heavy distortion
Ibanez CF7 Chorus/Flanger
Digitech XDD Digidelay -- various delay/echo functions

I also have a Crybaby wah pedal that is currently out of service (needs some soldering). It doesn't interact well with the Metal Master, though.

KeithieW

07-09-2004, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by Eating Lemur
Say, what sorts of equipment does everyone use? Keith's mentioning of his strat and Marshall amp made me curious to see what kind of instruments/equipment all the musicians own.

Gordon Bennett!!!!!!

When JamForte returns from holiday and decides to answer this question we may not see him in the chat room for a month or more. :D

Jam has (and plays) SO many different instruments he should open a museum!!!!!!!

moses

07-09-2004, 08:40 AM

I'm not too big on gear, but I have:

- Schecter A-7 (7 string solid body in the pic in the gallery)
- Schecter Jazz-7 (hollow body 7 string)
- Fender Strat plus (circa 1990, I modified the electronics a bit)
- Ibanez acoustic 7 string
- Squier MB-5 bass (5 string)

See a pattern there? I'm odd, I need an odd number of strings. Also:

- Peavey amp - I forget the model, sounds like crap
- Boss GT-6 pedal, whose amp simulator sounds much better than my amp, so I generally go through the board.
- King Student model trumpet

There's an old Poole piano at my house with a broken low F# and needs some attention. I never said I played it much though.

That's all I can think of.

solorossi

07-09-2004, 02:05 PM

I grew up in a musical household. My mom was a church organist and vocal soloist. All of us were required to take piano lessons as kids (although only one of the four of us stuck with it).

I played trumpet and sang all through HS and college, and I still sing with a semi-professional classical choral group in Milwaukee.

I got hooked on prog when my dad brought home Rick Wakeman's Six Wives of Henry VIII because he was a history teacher and thought it might be interesting. Since then I've been hooked on Yes, RW, Rush, Genesis, Crimson, and all of Yesspaz's other favs.

Rossi

Yesspaz

07-09-2004, 03:20 PM

I'm not a good enough musician to actually spend good money on nice equipment that won't be used properly. I therefore am content with my Lotus, a Fender clone p-bass. I have a Peavey Minx 110 (http://www.peavey.com/products/shop_online/browse.cfm/action/details/item/00449070/wc/1A1B13/fam/1B1/tcode/3/minx.cfm) bass amp. I have a Fender acoustic, bottom of the line, but sounds amazing. You'd never know it was only $200.

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-09-2004, 04:16 PM

Hoo boy. My musical career is almost as checkered as the rest of my past....

Started out at 4 or so on piano. My mom knew she had a budding musician on my hand when I sidled up next to her, looked at the keyboard, and plinked out the "Texaco Star" commercial.

Went to clarinet for a couple of years, then worked my way through that family (alto, bass, etc), then I moved on to Sax, where I developed my taste for LARGE instruments (well, a bari sax IS large for a 10 year old....)

When that got boring, in Jr. High school, I picked up a baritone horn and blew a few notes out of it. Had all the scales down in a month or so and played that for a while.

Then I made the biggest mistake of my life. I picked up a french horn.

Once band directors find out that you can play french horn, they won't let you play anything else. I played that cursed instrument for going on 15 years before I finally said "To HELL with it!" and dropped music entirely (right about the same time I got out of college).

Now I play euphonium in the local concert band (after extracting a promise that I would NEVER EVER EVER be forced to play French Horn UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES etc). I never played anything that'd fit in a rock or prog band. Not nimble fingered enough, I suppose.

Oh, I did try flute once. Almost passed out. Gave me a whole new appreciation of flute players...

Roger -Dot- Lee

Eating Lemur

07-09-2004, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by moses
See a pattern there? I'm odd, I need an odd number of strings.

Yes, I would like to pick up the 7 string as well--it seems like a lot of fun. Anyway, whenever I get the money, I know exactly what kind of guitar I am going to buy, and that will be a Carvin DC727C (or 747C) with a ruby red stain on quilted body, matching headstock, gold hardware, phase switche(s), and abalone block inlays (or none at all). I'm not sure what that will come around to exactly, but it should be in the neighborhood of $1000, which seems like a great deal to me (considering what it is).

Also, I wouldn't mind having one of their C66 models (they look very nice), but I want to get a 7 string model.

mossy

07-09-2004, 08:03 PM

Roger wrote:

Then I made the biggest mistake of my life. I picked up a french horn.

Once band directors find out that you can play french horn, they won't let you play anything else. Then I made the biggest mistake of my life. I picked up a french horn.

Roger, you are SO right about the french horn. Lugged that thing for a year and then someone said my lips were spreading so that was that. It does have a sweet sound tho.

THEN, went on to flute, and played that right through school and beyond. Bouree played not very well, many many times. Never got the JTull breathlessness down, of course.

Poda, you mention that you would like to play violin. Interesting choice! Would you electrify it? I can see you doing ponty-esque stuff.

I think I'd take up piano.

m

mossy

07-09-2004, 08:04 PM

sorry, roger! not sure why your quote ended up going twice. i really need to learn the art of the forum quote. it can't be that hard.

m

Eating Lemur

07-09-2004, 08:13 PM

I absolutely love the violin, though I don't think I'm going to play many more instruments than I do now.

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-09-2004, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by mossy
sorry, roger! not sure why your quote ended up going twice. i really need to learn the art of the forum quote. it can't be that hard.

m

No issue, Mossy, hon.

I'nd I've longed lerned tto accept them. Anyway, the fornat used is:
spewage

without the underscores, of course.

This retuuns: spewage

Hope that helps a little...

kirk

07-10-2004, 01:04 AM

i'll spare you my equipment list :D

i think i see where yesspaz is coming from.
there's a refinement that happens as players mature.

that doesn't mean that a music fan appreciates
music less, but maybe doesn't comprehend
the "acrobatics" involved, the virtuosity in the
same way- ?

i.e.- i'd be curious to see what's in say..robt. fripp's
cd changer.
it's more likely to be segovia than prog, the reason being
that artists don't tend to listen to persons of lesser
talent or composing skill.

IMO- it's easier for the trained musician to tell if there's
"method to the madness" .

Yesspaz

07-10-2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by kirk
IMO- it's easier for the trained musician to tell if there's
"method to the madness" .

Now Kirk gets what I'm talking about! I'm not saying you have to be a musician to appreciate music, I'm just betting that a musician is more likely to like prog than a non-musician. Someone who's never played a lick may have harder time wrapping their brains around the 2nd section of Awaken, which is in 11-time, than a person who's played music.

Also, it's been my observation that musicians often do not listen to the kind of music that they play. I got some friends in a post-rock band, and the guitarist listens to Floyd, Miles Davis, and Sinatra.

kevishev

07-11-2004, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Yesspaz
....during a particularly difficult Don Caballero piece where the band was being purposefully dischordant,....

The purposefull dischordance is precisely what appeals to me in the Don Caballero piece. Much like a lot of Zappa passages that sound like so much confusion to so many people. Not many people can appreciate the difficulty in pulling that type of music off.

During my youth, I was attracted to music by bands like Gentle Giant because of their weird timing and beat structures. To this day, after countless listens, I still can't master the time changes in some of their songs. I just don't know how they did it! I guess that's what appealed to me the most. The fact that it challenged my musical intellect to try and keep up. I guess I was, and still am attracted to music that I just can't figure out.

Another aspect of music that will immediately grab my attention are complex vocal harmonies. I am continually disapointed by some of the excellent music I hear that is accompanied by vocals that don't do the music justice. I think this element is particular to Prog Music for some reason.

I am not a professional musician. I can play a little guitar and plunk around on a piano a little. I can't read a note of music, although I have a photographic ear. All I know about the notes on a guitar is E A D G B E. Every African Dog Gets Bones Easily. The only musical training I have ever received was in the way of vocals. I'n my youth I was quite the vocallist.....now the only singing i do is in my truck (with the windows up).

Professional musicians may have a better understanding about what is actually happening in a given song, but as far as appreciation goes......anybody with an ear has the capability to hear and enjoy whatever they are listening to.

I am not a mechanic, but I still appreciate it when my truck gets me to where I want to go.

Kev

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-11-2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by kevishev
The purposefull dischordance is precisely what appeals to me in the Don Caballero piece. Much like a lot of Zappa passages that sound like so much confusion to so many people. Not many people can appreciate the difficulty in pulling that type of music off.

And this is exactly the type of thing that turns me off from artists like Zappa and DCab. I enjoy a bit of discordance on occasion, but I'm firmly of the mindset that sampling the sound of a cat who's tail is caught in a blender and calling it music does NOT fly in my book.

But the, maybe that's why they make all this different music...because we all don't like the same thing.

During my youth, I was attracted to music by bands like Gentle Giant because of their weird timing and beat structures. To this day, after countless listens, I still can't master the time changes in some of their songs. I just don't know how they did it! I guess that's what appealed to me the most. The fact that it challenged my musical intellect to try and keep up. I guess I was, and still am attracted to music that I just can't figure out.

You're in good company on that one. Some of my favorite tunage on AM is stuff that has ... non-standard time signatures. Trying to follow it is a challenge, and when they make it work to the point of "Whoa, how did they do THAT!", well, that's my kinda music.

I much prefer they do that in a sane and musical fashion than trying to see how many space chords(*) they can cram into a 32nd note run.

I'n my youth I was quite the vocallist.....now the only singing i do is in my truck (with the windows up).

Heh. You're in good, GOOD company there. My singing voice tends to scare small children and domesticated animals.

Footnotes: The official definition of a 'space chord' would be a root plus minor 3 and 7, augmented 4, 8, 12, 13, 15 and 17 with diminished 6, 9, and 11.

At least according to my college music theory instructor.

Roger -Dot- Lee

kevishev

07-11-2004, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Roger Lee
Footnotes: The official definition of a 'space chord' would be a root plus minor 3 and 7, augmented 4, 8, 12, 13, 15 and 17 with diminished 6, 9, and 11.

At least according to my college music theory instructor.

Roger -Dot- Lee

That's really cool Roger. After reading your post I realized that I am what could be considered as a "Musical Illiterate". I can understand music when I hear it. And I can vocalize music of my own with my voice. But I cannot read music nor can I write it!

I often wonder what I could have done with some real professional musical training. The only training I received was from jamming with other guys in garages and learning new chords and stuff. And doing this all the while we were so fucked-up we couldn't see straight!

I still think the only reason they let me jam with them in the first place was because I always had good weed.

Kev

kirk

07-11-2004, 11:18 AM

kev- ah yes, the "wanna jam?":D

i'm sensing an "art vs.craft" side debate a'brewing.

i've been in a few of those (recently), sort of
the musician's equivolent of "prog, not prog".

using the beatles as a prime example-
john was likely the least musically proficient member,
but was probably the most artistic.
most of john's catalog holds up well after 30 years,
much of paul's doesn't.
"ebony and ivory" comes to mind.

much of the time in rock, it's an art student at the core-
lennon, jim morrison, pete townshend, david byrne...

what say you ?

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-11-2004, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by kevishev
That's really cool Roger. After reading your post I realized that I am what could be considered as a "Musical Illiterate". I can understand music when I hear it. And I can vocalize music of my own with my voice. But I cannot read music nor can I write it!

Really.

Hell, should our paths ever cross, and we find ourselves in the same room with a sheet of paper, I'll TEACH you how to read music. I've been reading it since I've been a precocious little twerp. Shouldn't be a problem. It's not rocket science, and I've been teaching people how to read music since I was about 10.

Of course, this doesn't include chord charts or other rock/jazz guitar notation. I'll give you the fundimentals. The rest is up to you.

Roger -Dot- Lee, teachin' again...

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-11-2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by kirk
much of the time in rock, it's an art student at the core-
lennon, jim morrison, pete townshend, david byrne...

...Freddy Mercury....

(Graphic Artist, to be exact)

kevishev

07-11-2004, 01:19 PM

Kirk,

There are just too many factors to consider in such a debate. I would not engage anyone to argue one way or the other because there are just so many things I don't know.

For instance, I don't know if I agree with the basic premise that prog music has more devotees that are musicians than other forms of rock music. I can understand why someone would feel that way, but in reality, I think the bigger picture is much larger than that. First you would have to define "musicians". Then I suppose you would have to define "rock music". Not to mention trying to determine the definition of "prog music" itself. These three terms (prog music, musicians and rock music) are just too subjective, too vague and cover too wide a spectrum for any debate on their form or function to hold any merit whatsoever. There will always be those that agree with you and there will always be those that think you are absolutely psychotic.

As far as the "art vs craft" scenario, call me crazy, but in my mind they are one and the same.

Kev

progdirjim

07-14-2004, 03:36 PM

Good thread. I wish I hadn't been away from my computer for the last few days, so I could have participated more. I'll comment on a few things where I think I have something to contribute.

My musical heritage: I play drums, I'm pretty good. I currently own a Tama 5 piece and a Yamaha 7 pad digital, plus an assortment of latin percussion. I'm pretty mediocre on the latin stuff. I play acoustic guitar (a decent Yamaha), I'm fair on that. I play keyboards (an old Casio, probably the same as Eating Lemur(I think it was)), and I'm poor on those, but writing melody is easier on that than on the guitar for me. I played cello and violin in junior high school/high school. Cello is the french horn of the orchestra. I couldn't get instruction on the violin until I started figuring out the violin part and playing it on the cello. My being out of sync with the other cellists bugged our conductor enough. I was first chair cello, but I still felt like I was accompanying too often...

Prog music, by my "definition", is typically more complex than "straight rock", so I suppose a musical education may help one appreciate that technical factor more. I don't believe it's necessary though.

Keithie, singing definitely qualifies as an instrument. I wish I could sing more than cheezy backing vox.

As far as discordant music goes, I'm always suspicious. I allow for the possiblity that they're playing something orderly, but too complex for me to grasp. But deep down I feel many or most artists who play that type of music are trying to be complex without truly understanding composition or orchestration. Don Cab wanders off into that territory at times, but at other times I get exactly what they're doing, so who knows?

Rick and Roll

07-14-2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by kevishev

I still think the only reason they let me jam with them in the first place was because I always had good weed.

Kev

That's funny - now that may explain the presence of the Flute player in Ozrics.:D

About the Baritone (Euphonium) Roger - I wanted to play trombone in fifth grade and so did everyone. The same theory about the French Horn applied for the Baritone. I lugged that around until 10th grade, it was horrible. Having to perform the theme from "The Vikings" movie, and getting it stolen etc....

When marching band came along, that was my out....no way I was keeping up with it. Plus the bass clef was not helpful to translate to other instruments. Then I just lost interest.

Now my fifth grader just played Trombone and wants to switch......

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-14-2004, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
That's funny - now that may explain the presence of the Flute player in Ozrics.:D

Of course, so might plate tectonics. I've given up on trying to figure out Ozric at any level.

About the Baritone (Euphonium) Roger - I wanted to play trombone in fifth grade and so did everyone. The same theory about the French Horn applied for the Baritone. I lugged that around until 10th grade, it was horrible. Having to perform the theme from "The Vikings" movie, and getting it stolen etc....

Indeed. But on the upside, baritone/euphonium wise, at least you weren't subjected to years and years of upbeats courtesy John Phillips Sousa.

I could go on (and have gone on) at great length about his musical incompetence when it comes to french horn parts....

When marching band came along, that was my out....no way I was keeping up with it. Plus the bass clef was not helpful to translate to other instruments. Then I just lost interest.

Funny. I was just the opposite. I enjoyed marching band french horn. I wouldn't want to play baritone (or worse, marching euphonium) on the field, but the FH wasn't so bad.

(the problem with marching euphonium is that, due to the physics of the instrument, on the field it sounds like an elephant in labor -- and that's if you knew what you were doing!).

Now my fifth grader just played Trombone and wants to switch......

Encourage him. Good bone players are hard to find. Good bone players that can actually play below fff are a treasure. :D

Roger -Dot- Lee

kirk

07-14-2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Roger Lee
Of course, so might plate tectonics. I've given up on trying to figure out Ozric at any level.

well, that's good to hear.:cool:
being a flute player myself (i won't say "flautist"
that's what rampal, galway are)-
i thought i was being elitist.

IMO- that guy in ozric plays the flute
like steve martin plays the sax.

i like a few of their pieces, but not my
favorite new prog band.

p e a c e kirk

progdirjim

07-14-2004, 08:08 PM

Rick and Roll

07-14-2004, 09:11 PM

don't get me wrong I love Ozrics. Ed Wynne is an amazing musician, and if I ever get my Nearfest review done I may explain more.

I was saying the guy doesn't add anything on flute. Like the Steve Martin reference.....

Yesspaz

07-14-2004, 10:12 PM

I don't own any Ozric, but when I'm listening to AM and not paying attention to what's on, every once in a while something plays that just kills me. Then I look, and it's Ozric almost everytime. Never heard a song of their's I didn't like. Amazing group.

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-15-2004, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by progdirjim
Then according to your music theory instructor's definintion, the space chord (or something remarkably close) can also be achieved by accidentally setting your six-pack down on the keyboard...:D

That's actually quite close. I understand tha Bela Bartok, one of the first classical composers to use the space chord, actually discovered it when he fell asleep at the piano and his head and arms hit the keyboard.

He liked what he heard, I guess... :D

kirk

07-15-2004, 01:42 PM

[i]
I was saying the guy doesn't add anything on flute. Like the Steve Martin reference..... [/B]

*

tongle

07-17-2004, 10:07 AM

Yeah - I often wondered about this.

I play guitar, flute, piano, banjo, mandolin and have the greatest admiration for musicians like Mike Oldfield who play every instrument under the sun.

I recognise my own limitations though, when I listen to Satriani or Steve Vai or Rick Wakeman.

I guess the kind of music we like is accessible on many different levels. Once can appreciate / like it without knowing how it is actually produced.
As a musician I like it because I feel a certain connection with the musicians themselves - I kind of have an insight into how they do what they do even though I could never match their tallent.

This can lead to feelings of awe and wonder but also deep frustration - it's a kind of love/hate thing!!

Most of all there is the emotional side of it. Some of the music I hear moves me to tears (literally). I know some people think this is a bit weird but I think music can connect with you on such a deep level that it bypasses any concious thought and goes straight to your heart.

Anyway - I'll stop ramling now but I thought this was an interesting question and I've enjoyed reading the responses.

prythm

07-19-2004, 04:33 PM

I think musicians who are familiar with spending hundreds of hours studying and honing their craft are attracted to the genres of music that are known for superiority in craft, such as prog rock.

I also believe that, because of its advanced technical nature, prog rock attracts people who are more technical in nature and who are not neccessarily musicians. These people need to be aurally fed something a little more challenging then radio slop. Either the music, the craftsmanship, the lyrics or the sounds need to be comprised of substance to dig their intellect into. So, even if they don’t exactly know what technical things are being done, as a musician might (like whether it’s in 9/8th time, or the guitarist is double picking 32nds, or the synthesis is running his Synergy through Moog modules), they are attracted to the fact and appreciate the music because it is ‘intelligent’ in some or all ways.

I play piano - See http://www.simmphonic.com

My alter ego plays percussion perpetually probing for a fresh groove - http://www.simmphonic.com/cow/who_is_cow.htm

and for a little geek action check out - http://www.simmphonic.com/programming/flash.htm

kirk

07-19-2004, 06:00 PM

hi scott- good point. there's at least an intellectual
facet to prog and it's listeners, if not always a
musical one.
it's interesting though- w/ your vote, we're now at X 5
musician listeners over non-musician.

i had a listen to some of your samples,
very soothing, well recorded newage, that i'd compare
to some of the windham hill artists.

p e a c e kirk/zenpool

Yesspaz

07-20-2004, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by prythm
I also believe that, because of its advanced technical nature, prog rock attracts people who are more technical in nature and who are not neccessarily musicians. These people need to be aurally fed something a little more challenging then radio slop.
Nice insight prythm. But I'd expand it to include people of above average intelligence, rather than just technical people.

KeithieW

07-20-2004, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Nice insight prythm. But I'd expand it to include people of above average intelligence, rather than just technical people.

That's a joke right Spaz????????

If it's not.....PERlease!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone reading that could think "This guy is so far up his own a**e he's coming back down again"

Intelligence has bugger all to do with appreciation of ANY form of art or the appreciation of ANYTHING for that matter.

My friend's six year old daughter likes Van Gough's Sunflowers paintings because they LOOK nice to her whereas another friend of mine who has a degree in Physics doesn't. That's not to say that the six year old isn't intelligent, she is, but that her perception of the painting is different.

My wife, who I might add is one of the most intelligent people I know, can't stand listening to Stravinsky whereas I would go miles to hear, say, The Rite of Spring played in concert.

I'm sure some of the devils who nearly killed me in a bombing incident in 1974 were intelligent too but they didn't APPRECIATE life the way I do. They had their own agenda. And that's the point.

You don't need intelligence to like something it just has to appeal to your senses and fit in with your life agenda.

Rick and Roll

07-20-2004, 07:57 AM

to see the explanation for this one........

prythm

07-20-2004, 09:54 AM

Thanks Kirk for the kudos.

I believe that music, as well as paintings, consist of two aspects- the art side and the craft side. The craft side refers to the technical facets of the composition, construction and performance of the piece. The art side is the spiritual, communicating, transcribed inspiration, subjective part. The art side, if the piece has some, is visible by anyone (at any age or IQ) although individually interpreted. I suggest that the technical side is appealing more to ‘technical’ people (people interested in process and/or structure and/or method and therefore deem the craft aspect as relevant to the substance of the piece).

As a musician I try to find a healthy balance of the two sides in my music as well as in my life. In this instance the technical side works in harmony with the artsy side, where both don’t disturb or consciously monitor the other (which is a tough thing to do).

I’m not saying that musicians that are more polar aren’t good though. Peter Gabriel, who admits he can’t find middle C, and writes two cord songs (Biko) is awesome because he is so good at the art (and not letting technical get in the way). The authentic music of Bach can be considered, by today’s standards, as truly technical however if you have insight into the craft and/or appreciate technical (I didn’t say intelligence) he can blow you away. Amazing stuff. Of course Bach on piano, as opposed to its native harpsichord, brings in an artistic performance element (Check out Keith Jarrett and his liner notes on balancing the right amount of art while realizing Bach’s music).

Note that I believe polarity, though it can spawn great art, can be a very bad and crippling thing though. Personally I believe balance is the key to art and life. Go with the flow but stay in the know.

KeithieW, sorry to hear about the 74 thing.

Rick and Roll

07-20-2004, 10:02 AM

I just like to rock........

prythm

07-20-2004, 10:27 AM

lol :p

kirk

07-20-2004, 03:56 PM

keith- intelligence isn't a requisite for appreciation
of the arts, but individual experience plays a role,
as does the individual makeup of the viewer/listener.

whereas the child (in us all) views the painting in
the context of "pretty flowers", the trained eye goes
beyond the surface to individual brushstrokes, ect.,
why one artist's "pretty flowers"is worth millions,
considered a masterpiece, while another isn't.
a child has no sense of "gestalt", the transcending of medium
to become something other, unique.

i should mention that my education, degree is in fine arts.
i later studied w/ dc comics sr. editor joe
(sgt.rock, hawkman, enemy ace) kubert, apprenticed
w/ michael t. gilbert of moorcock's "elric" gr. novel fame.
i won't say the switch to music (less than 3 yrs. ago)
was easy, but my art background helped greatly.
i fall heavily to the "art"side of "art vs. craft".

KeithieW

07-20-2004, 06:11 PM

I agree that experience plays a major role in what we perceive to be good. We can all look at things on a different level and our enjoyment of that can be enhanced with additional knowledge.

I have been studying the work of JMW Turner recently and the more I delve into it the more interesting it becomes. I have been looking into it at a deeper level. Brush work etc. and the way he portrays light and 3 dimensional things on a 2 dimensional background and it's fascinating.

As a poet myself I don't care if someone understands the metre, or the tempo of the poem. All I want from them is that they enjoy reading it. If they do that's great. If they don't, well that's great too.

As a musician would you rather someone said "Wow, I really enjoyed that!" or "Wow, that was in 9/8 time!"

(If they said "Wow, I really enjoyed that! It was in 9/8 time!" you've really got it made :D but to me the fact that they enjoy it is enough. I don't care if they appreciate the work that went into the creation....................am I crazy to think that way?)

kirk

07-20-2004, 07:20 PM

no, not crazy. it could be argued that transparency of
technique is one of the elements we perceive as "genius".
also, the faster it seems to flow, the more "talented"
the artist appears.

re: art vs. craft-
while teaching someone to be "an artist" is
almost impossible, it's very possible to teach someone to be
a better artist, or craftsman.

IMO-that's it in a nutshell .
"craft" can be taught, "art" can't.
i.e.- many can learn to recite classical music note for note,
few could conceive the piece.
one's a R side of the brain activity, the other a L.

when writing lyrics or poetry, the final result is
often a "best of", after countless re-writes,
dead ends. the notes around the outside aren't
considered interesting until you're famous and dead.

kirk

prythm

07-21-2004, 08:31 AM

Good points gentlemen.

On the 'you can't teach someone to be an artist, just a better musician' subject -

Do you think that in order to be an artist you have to have some sort of strife in your life to push (inspire, fuel, drive, understand) artistic creation?

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-21-2004, 08:51 AM

KeithieW

07-21-2004, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by prythm
Good points gentlemen.

On the 'you can't teach someone to be an artist, just a better musician' subject -

Do you think that in order to be an artist you have to have some sort of strife in your life to push (inspire, fuel, drive, understand) artistic creation?

Interesting question.

A lot of great things have been created on the back of serious strife. The "Starving Artist" thing. The Blues is a case in point here. Wonderful music that lifts you when you're down but originally written under a cloud of oppression.

Beethoven was stone deaf when he wrote the 9th Symphony and the Missa Solemnis and we all appreciate what works of genius they are. I'd go as far as saying that the 9th symphony is one of the greatest achievments in Western civilisation.

But great work also comes from periods of great joy.

Jon Anderson seems to me to be one of the most contented people I've ever met and he comes up with some of the most beautiful music I've ever heard.

The same thing applies to Literature, Painting, Poetry and Sculpture.

So in answer to your question I'd have to say Yes and No. You need inspiration to create but that doesn't always have to be negative inspiration. It can be very positive too.

The American poet Joyce Kilmer (1886-1918) famously wrote about trees having been inspired by their beauty.

I THINK that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.

A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the sweet earth's flowing breast;

A tree that looks at God all day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;

A tree that may in summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.

Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree.

*********************************

Beautiful and inspired by beauty, not angst.

tongle

07-21-2004, 09:54 AM

Very interesting thread.

Where do you think talent comes into the equasion?

I was thinking of some autistic children who have amazing skills, artistic and/or musical.
These poor kids - because of their condition - would score quite poorly on most intelligence measures and yet they often display incredible abilities, is this just pure talent?

Perhaps the problem with this discussion is that we tend to measure intelligence in specific and often quite narrow ways, being emotionally intelligent is very different from being academicaly intelligent for example.

Musical / artisitc intelligence is also an aspect of human nature and can appear in greater or lesser degrees in people.

I picked up guitar quite easily but have really had to work on playing piano - it does not come naturally to me. So could you say I have an innate talent for music with a predisposition to stringed instruments?

Or is this becoming overly complex?

And in conclusion - are people who have musical inteligence in any form more likely to appreciate 'inteligent music' as opposed to mass produced pop?

Rick and Roll

07-21-2004, 11:10 AM

just like to rock.:)

KeithieW

07-21-2004, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
just like to rock.:)

So do I but it's nice to think about and debate things from time to time.:p

Rick and Roll

07-21-2004, 11:13 AM

it is difficult for me to leave my snart-aleck self behind sometimes...

continue oh scholars of the world.....

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-21-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
it is difficult for me to leave my snart-aleck self behind sometimes...

Oh, how WELL I know THIS! :D :p

(there re few things I enjoy more than giving R'n'R a hard time about these things...)

continue oh scholars of the world.....

Oh THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

Roger -Dot- Lee, in a whimsical frame of mind...to the point where he's actually contemplating officially changing his name to Roger -Dot- Lee

Roger -Dot- Lee

07-21-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Roger Lee
Oh, how WELL I know THIS! :D :p

(there are few things I enjoy more than giving R'n'R a hard time about these things...)

[b]

Oh THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

Roger -Dot- Lee, in a whimsical frame of mind...to the point where he's actually contemplating officially changing his name to Roger -Dot- Lee

kirk

07-21-2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Keith Waye

Jon Anderson seems to me to be one of the most contented people I've ever met and he comes up with some of the most beautiful music I've ever heard.

agreed.

from my perspective "the myth of the starving artist"
is just that. i've known some people that've almost starved
from choosing a career in the arts, but it wasn't intentional.;)

the fact is, it's very expensive for artists and musicians
to create competitively. an average 6x4 painting can
well cost several hundred dollars in materials.
in the indie music market, a poor person has very little
chance of breaking in. the technology has become
more affordable, my home studio can outperform
a million dollar studio from 20 years ago, but the
ante to enter the game is still considerable, out of
reach of the average income.

TBL- starving in today's arts climate isn't an option.

Yesspaz

07-21-2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by tgleeson
I was thinking of some autistic children who have amazing skills, artistic and/or musical.
These poor kids - because of their condition - would score quite poorly on most intelligence measures and yet they often display incredible abilities, is this just pure talent?

Ya know, I think the human spirit and/or body has some innate ability to comprnsate for deficiencies in one area by being amazing in another. Blind people have better hearing, for example. Autistics don't absorb information the way "normal" people do, so their brain may be more sensitive to shape and form and such, and that's why many can paint well. etc.

I know that this is off topic, but still I thought it interesting.

KeithieW

07-21-2004, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Ya know, I think the human spirit and/or body has some innate ability to comprnsate for deficiencies in one area by being amazing in another. Blind people have better hearing, for example. Autistics don't absorb information the way "normal" people do, so their brain may be more sensitive to shape and form and such, and that's why many can paint well. etc.

I know that this is off topic, but still I thought it interesting.

Fascinating! There is a young autistic chap called Stephen Wiltshire who went for a trip on the London Eye. When he got home he drew the scene from the top from memory and it was nigh on perfect in detail. His work is exhibited now and is well worth checking out. He's done a painting of Times Square, NY that will, IMHO, amaze you.

THAT should inspire

Yesspaz

07-21-2004, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Keith Waye
Beethoven was stone deaf when he wrote the 9th Symphony and the Missa Solemnis and we all appreciate what works of genius they are.
True that. However, as we all know, he could see. And having a lifetime of musical experience, if he could write the note on a page, and he could hear everything in his head, why is this seen as such an amazing feat? I've never understood it. One would think, even being deaf, that one could place a score from something written say, by John Williams or Philip Glass or any other living composer, and he could read it in his head and know how it was supposed to sound.

So even though he was deaf, I don't know that we can suppose he was depressed when he wrote "Ode to Joy." As an opposite example, Igor Stravinsky was not deaf when he wrote the unnerving "The Rite of Spring."

Originally posted by Keith Waye
So in answer to your question I'd have to say Yes and No. You need inspiration to create but that doesn't always have to be negative inspiration. It can be very positive too.
What is it they say in England? Right-O, chap! An artist needs inspiration, but it can be positive, negative, or anything else. John Lennon was an artists. "The Ballad of John and Yoko," "Revolution," and "Julia" all came out of negative feelings. "I Wanna Hold Your Hand," "Two of Us," and "All You Need Is Love" all came out of positive feelings.

To give an opposite example to the James Joyce (and to prove I too can quote poetry from memory :D ), here's a poem written from a negative feeling, in this case, melancholy. The famous Robert Frost poem, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening."

"Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house in the village though.
He will not see me stopping here
to watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
to stop without a farmhouse near,
between the woods and frozen lake,
the darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
to ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
of misty frost and downy flake.

These woods are lovely, dark and deep,
but I have promises to keep,
and miles to go before I sleep,
and miles to go before I sleep."

As I was writing that, I was thinking about the "art vs. craft" thing. No one will deny the art in that poem, but the amazing thing to me, having written a few things in my time, is the craft.
Four stanzas, PERFECT iambic pentameter, AABA BBCB CCDC DDDD rhyme scheme. The fourth stanza uses a "no-no" in poetry, repitition, to perfect effect. It destroys the rhyme pattern, but more importantly, it is that last line that makes the whole poem work.

Now, I love this poem. I think it's the most perfect poem in the English language. I don't get free verse. In fact, I laugh at free verse (not trying to start a debate on the validity of free verse - still talking about music). IMO, it's basically prose with versification and a tighter use of imagery, but I can't think of that as poetry. Poems need some sort of structure, no matter how loose (even a list poem has structure).

In other words, this poem is studied still to this day because it is an example of great art AND great craft. While I agree with some of the sentiments in this thread that you don't need to know jack about music to like it and love it and appreciate it, I believe, to the core, that a knowledge of craft makes you enjoy music more than you would without knowledge of craft. I liked that Frost poem before I understood how it worked. But I like it even more when I was taught how poetry worked. Same with music.

That's why they teach Music Appreciation at every university.

kirk

07-21-2004, 12:51 PM

there's no doubt about it, most of my musician
friends that lean to the "art" side joke about
having A.D.D.

there's verified cases that administering ritalin to A.D.D.
patients stripped them of their creativity.
in one case, the ability to play the piano vanished completely.

i was one of those kids that surely would've been
on ritalin today.
i couldn't pass a math class to save my life,
became my high school's 1st art major.

some studies are suggesting that what we're calling
A.D.D.(not to be confused w/ "A.D.H.D.")
may well be a personality trait of the "artist/inventor" (A.I.),
citing thomas edison as a prime example.

Yesspaz

07-21-2004, 12:58 PM

I'm not convinced there's an "art side" or "craft side." Art is a nebulous thing that you can't pin down, but craft has no such nebulousness to it. There are hundreds of old rock records from the early 60s, and they all have pretty much the same crafting: 3 chords in verse/chorus/verse/chorus structure, then a bridge-often with a key change to 3 other chords, then back to the original three for verse/chorus. Small variations on this patter, of course. But what stood out? Art of the Beatles and the Byrds, amongst others. Who still listens to Herman's Hermits?

Would you say Lennon was on the "art side" or the "craft side"? I'd say he's an artist, but he definitely knew the craft of making music.

I.e., "Art" and "Craft" are different things, but not mutually exclusive terms.

progdirjim

07-21-2004, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Yesspaz
So even though he was deaf, I don't know that we can suppose he was depressed when he wrote "Ode to Joy." As an opposite example, Igor Stravinsky was not deaf when he wrote the unnerving "The Rite of Spring."
I cannot imagine trying to put "Ode To Joy" to any music, nor can I picture writing that portion of the Ninth, whilst depressed. That does not compute to either my analytical (I'm an engineer), or my artistic (I'm an AMATEUR musician, artist, prose writer and poet) side.
John Lennon was an artists. "The Ballad of John and Yoko," "Revolution," and "Julia" all came out of negative feelings. "I Wanna Hold Your Hand," "Two of Us," and "All You Need Is Love" all came out of positive feelings.
Actually, I think Paul wrote all of your positive examples above. Paul was the happy optimist, John the cynic.

To give an opposite example to the James Joyce (and to prove I too can quote poetry from memory :D ), here's a poem written from a negative feeling, in this case, melancholy. The famous Robert Frost poem, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening."
<beautiful poem snipped>
As I was writing that, I was thinking about the "art vs. craft" thing. No one will deny the art in that poem, but the amazing thing to me, having written a few things in my time, is the craft.
Four stanzas, PERFECT iambic pentameter, AABA BBCB CCDC DDDD rhyme scheme. The fourth stanza uses a "no-no" in poetry, repitition, to perfect effect. It destroys the rhyme pattern, but more importantly, it is that last line that makes the whole poem work.
That is indeed a beautiful poem, as is much of Frost's work. A little "trick" to making rhyming schemes work is to pick easy words to rhyme. Sounds obvious, but try coming up with a rhyming scheme using "silver" versus "gold" - even though they are similar "symbolically", picking the right word for A in your rhyme scheme is a key. And this is not meant to trivialize Frost - my best work can't compete with his throwaways.
While I agree with some of the sentiments in this thread that you don't need to know jack about music to like it and love it and appreciate it, I believe, to the core, that a knowledge of craft makes you enjoy music more than you would without knowledge of craft. I liked that Frost poem before I understood how it worked. But I like it even more when I was taught how poetry worked. Same with music.
I would agree with Yesspaz on this one. Knowledge is not necessary for, but it usually will enhance, appreciation.

prythm

07-21-2004, 02:04 PM

But great work also comes from periods of great joy.

Jon Anderson and Joyce Kilmer are excellent examples of artists who are inspired and transcribe positive energy, though I'd like to explore their lives a bit more. I know Jon Anderson admits that he didn’t like having to drop out of school to support his family because his father was sick. That can cause some angst that spawn artistic realization. I really don't know the truth but just saying it would be interesting to ask him. He is truly one who can actually 'hear' flowers as he's said at one show I saw him at. As for Kilmer, he was just included in a study where a computer program analyzed the words of poets to look for traits in word usage of suicidal people vs. non suicidal people (He was of course placed in the non suicidal test group (see www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/07/27/wpoet27.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/07/27/wpoet27.xml) ). I admit he definitely derived from positive energy and made some beautiful art. Thanks for the recite. In both cases was there something earlier on in their lives that woke up their artistic vision. Jon was admittedly shy. Again, I’m just pulling whatever facts I can google. No matter the driver of the artistic awakening, the two example artists do demonstrate positive energy embodied in art.

This would be an interesting study of how a person gains artistic insight (the study probably already exists in some nature). I think we all agree that it’s something that can’t be taught, but must be learned or derived through experience.

Personally I’m currently questioning the polarity of my artistic drive and its product. I know it’s good, to me, if it is real (true), and if it successfully captures emotion and atmosphere of any tone.

Sorry we’re a bit off thread but all the above posts have been interesting to me.
Here’s a review, with some admendments.

I think most people agree that better crafted art is appreciated by and attracts people who study the craft.

All ‘works of art’, be it music or paintings etc., have a craft side and an artistic side to it.

Craft can be taught but art must be learned (or divinely granted ;) )

Knowledge of the craft brings about a different appreciation and enjoyment of the piece (painting, song, poem)

A person who does not know the craft can enjoy and/or appreciate the piece as much as someone in the know.

Whether or not a piece is good is subjective, no matter how much craft it may or may not possess. However, history proves that well crafted art holds up longer.

Autistic people can be fascinating.

QuantumJo is lefthanded.

Negative energy can make happy art. (I still have to examine this. I’ll have to hit some phyco forums and see what comes up there.)

progdirjim

07-21-2004, 02:07 PM

One more thought on the "positive" versus "negative" thing - I think it is INTENSITY of feeling that generates creativity - and it may be that negative feelings are more often classified as intense than positive ones. That's why people associate negative experiences with being artistic inspiration moreso than positive experiences. But, as several people have already illustrated, strong positive emotions can be very artistically inspiring as well.

And Kirk, as far as the ADD thing goes: are you STILL talking about that?:D :D

Yesspaz

07-21-2004, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by progdirjim
Actually, I think Paul wrote all of your positive examples above. Paul was the happy optimist, John the cynic.

Hmm. Maybe so on "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and "Two of Us," but I'm positive Lennon wrote "All You Need Is Love." The trick to knowing who really wrote each Lennon/McCartney song is who's singing. I know Paul hates to this day that Lennon's name is attached to "Yesterday," which is Paul solo.

Originally posted by progdirjim
A little "trick" to making rhyming schemes work is to pick easy words to rhyme. Sounds obvious, but try coming up with a rhyming scheme using "silver" versus "gold" - even though they are similar "symbolically", picking the right word for A in your rhyme scheme is a key.
Exactly my point - that's part of the craft. Poets, artists, musicians, etc. that know craft, can appreciate the work at a deeper level.

BTW, can you see people discussing poetry, sculpture, art vs. craft, and inspiration on the AC/DC, Kiss, Poison type websites? Possibly, but I doubt it. Just one more piece of evidence that prog listeners are probably of a different personality than non-prog listeners. The same "tick" in our heads that makes us analyze movies makes us like prog.

KeithieW

07-22-2004, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Just one more piece of evidence that prog listeners are probably of a different personality than non-prog listeners.

Does the fact then that I like Prog AND Jazz AND Classical AND.......... make me schizophrenic? I hope not! ;)

Originally posted by progdirjim
One more thought on the "positive" versus "negative" thing - I think it is INTENSITY of feeling that generates creativity - and it may be that negative feelings are more often classified as intense than positive ones. That's why people associate negative experiences with being artistic inspiration moreso than positive experiences. But, as several people have already illustrated, strong positive emotions can be very artistically inspiring as well.

Yes absolutely! INTENSITY of feeling is a huge factor in the creative process. If I feel intense about something that has inspired me, the words just flow but more thought is required when the intensity factor is lower. Also, and this is probably more to do with my personality than anything else, the best things I have written (other peoples judgement not my own) have all come from times of positive inspiration. This brings another factor into the equation, Personality.

Originally posted by prythm

1) A person who does not know the craft can enjoy and/or appreciate the piece as much as someone in the know.

2) Knowledge of the craft brings about a different appreciation and enjoyment of the piece (painting, song, poem)

I've taken the liberty of switching these paragraphs around as I think they need to be taken in this order.

1) Totally agree with you. You do NOT have to understand the finer points of the work to appreciate or like it.

BUT:

2) If you do look deeper into the circumstances behind and the technique used in the creation of the piece you can gain even more from it. The example I used of my studies JMW Turner's paintings demonstrates this. I always liked a lot of his work but knowing more about his technique and the stories behind the creation of works such as "Turnip pickers at Slough" or "Peace: Burial at sea" just enhances my enjoyment of them. You can use the same knowledge and apply it to many other artists as well.

I'm not advertising here but if any of you come to London and take a couple of my walks around the city I'm sure I could show you things that don't appear in any guide book and which unless they were pointed out you may miss. I hope that that would ENHANCE your enjoyment of visiting this city.

Excellent thread.

I'm off to the Dream Theater fans forum now to get the same discussion going. :D