the removal of certain Don Cab songs

[Yesspaz]

First of all, I've not changed my mind about this band, so don't play Handel's Hallelujah Chorus just yet.

I read Jim's words in the shout about possibly removing some of the Don Cab, and as the donor of the material, and as probably the only AMer who is intimitaly familiar with every note on all five albums, I'm going first in an attempt to, as the most knowledgeable one on this band, say what I feel is a definitive word. (Of course, true definitiveness is PDJ's opinions.)

If any Don Caballero is removed, it should be these songs:

"Please Tokio, Please This Is Tokio"
"Cold Knees (In April)
"From the Desk of Elsewhere Go"
--and possibly---
"P, P, P, Antless"

These four are long and purposefully abrasive. But the rest of the catalog should definitely stay. "American Don" is mellow and intricate. "What Burns Never Returns" is relatively mellow and just as intricate. They are both pretty. "For Respect" and "Singles Breaking Up, Vol. 1" are made up of shorter, punchier songs, but no less talented. They are taut and complex loud instrumentals.

Whenever I see someone doing the old "Oh crap it's Don Caballero" it's usually about a song from "2," which is admittedly the hardest of the five to listen too. That's the one with "Tokio," "Knees," and "Antless." The short songs from "2" are great, and the last long track, "No One Gives a Hoot About Faux-Ass Nonsense," is relatively mellow - like a slightly louder outtake from "American Don."

Now I realize Don Caballero is not everyone's cup of tea, but neither is any other group here. I'd like to point out that as I was loading next week's BR, I saw "Tokio" pop into the request list. I.e. someone who is not me requested it. There's been this vibe I've noticed that when Don Cab plays, it's assumed that I requested it or that I'm deejaying. Well, I never deejay, and I don't request Don Cab that often. With five albums, they get a random SAM grab quite often, or are requested by someone else.

I will always be amazed by one aspect of human nature. The naysayers speak louder than the supporters. I'm not the only one on the Moon who likes Don Cab, or they wouldn't be requested by others. But, they aren't power posters like R.L, KW, RnR, and others. So the hatred of Don Cab is vastly over-exaggerated. But I'll be a good sport. If Don Cab songs have got to go, I say those four above and then let it lie and see what happens. I'll admit that "Tokio" and "Knees" have gotten a lot of play lately compared to other Don Cab stuff, but, don't let the four abrasive tunes spoil the whole barrel.

As I said at the top, I've not changed my mind on Don Caballero, but I know that this discussion can potentially deteriorate into "Kill it all!" pretty fast (in fact I expect it to). When someone hates something, as a few power posters do, there's little objectivity. As someone who likes the band, I feel I can be objective and make a realistic suggestion about the removal of these four songs.

Spaz out, and let the debacle begin :D

[zvinki]

I find Don's music challenging, which is a good thing to me otherwiseI'd be listening to another station than AM. As a matter of fact, I dislike very few of Don's songs.

I'll push this even further, everything that has Spaz's fingerprints on it is superior, in my opinion, to most of the rest of the stuff played on AM.

[KeithieW]

Originally posted by Yesspaz in the X = Y thread
Play random notes? I thought you understood music. If you think Don Cab is mindless, you need to rethink. Don Cab is of a different mind, yes, but they hardly play mindless notes. Most of what they play is meticulously precise.

See new thread.
Meticulously precise? How precise do you have to be to sustain feedback for however many minutes it is in Tokio......? However that's not the point.

What started off as a bit of a joke in the Black Box has gotten a little out of hand and I accept a lot of the responsibility for that.

To set the record straight. As it happens I'm against pulling tracks from the playlist just because someone out there doesn't like a particular band. As Spaz says someone other than he is RQing them and that must indicate that they want to hear them so that's a good enough reason to keep them available.

The reason I don't like the Dons is "MAYBE" because I haven't heard enough of the tracks to form a proper opinion. The ones that do get played a lot such as the ones that have been quoted above, just don't hit the spot. Neither does "The peter criss jazz" in which I can find nothing to recommend it. That is a classic example of the noise for noise sake ethic I was alluding to with the random notes comment. You may say that it is beautifully structured, cleverly put together, complex or any other description but that doesn't get away from the fact that I personally don't like what I hear and in a public forum such as this I feel entitled to say so.

Your comment about human nature is correct too Spaz. It has always been easier to destroy than create. That IS human nature and you will never change that. What you can do is state your case and continue to argue your point of view until agreement is reached or until you just end up agreeing to disagree. That is where we are here I think. Nothing wrong with that.

So to summarise.

1) Don't pull the tracks.
2) I don't like Don Cab......maybe never will.
3) We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. And.......
4) In future when they come on I'll just switch the ears off and concentrate on something else rather than make smart arse comments in Black.

[RogorMortis]

Hats off for Keith being honest.

Keith is right that it's perhaps a joke out of control as I'm against pulling of tracks.

I like Don C enough to listen to them on the moon even though there are a couple of tracks that are "far out" but then again I have music in my collection that's far out in others opinion

Lets just wait and see.

[Bob Lentil]

I love the fact that Keithie's post comes in full and Cliffs-Noted versions.

[moses]

I like Don Caballero and might be as big a fan as Yesspaz. The fact that the moon had two of their CDs when I started listening was instrumental in my actually staying here. It showed that this station was willing to accept a wider view of prog than other stations.

2 is probably my favorite cd of thiers. I think it's genius. That said, it may be true that some of the tracks fit in poorly with the rest of the Aural Moon "flow" than others.

I am also against removing them but if that becomes the decision of the management I would respect that. For the record, I don't typically request Don Cab tunes, preferring to be pleasantly surprised when someone else (or SAM) does.

[Rick and Roll]

This is funny....Don Cab is probably one of Mike Potter's favorite bands, who is responsible for bringing the best prog acts to my area (Orion Studios). He is a big fan of that type of music. When he talks of them, Univers Zero, etc., I just nod my head an let it pass on through.

I do not like ambient, discordant, or most RIO. "Industrial" music generally annoys me. I enjoy Miriodor but despise Thinking Plague. I like fusion but can't stomach Land of Chocolate.

When discussions like these occur, it always seems to be that if you don't like this kind of stuff you are closed minded. I prefer to think of it as honest. I do not get a kick out of Robert Fripp and his Frippertronics per se, but I like the tunes. I just don't like noise without ideas. That doesn't make me disrespectful, nor should I feel I have to genuflect to the artist.

I'm a big fan of acoustic instruments, but mostly mixed in with heavy electric. I do not think bands like Don Cab make this kind of music, they tend to just drone. So I ignore it.

While it is true that you are not responsible for selecting these songs Spaz, you are responsible for increasing the base of which to choose from. Are you really donating all of these? I figured that since you are self-admittedly not wealthy, that you are selective in what you donate. If donating means sending files, then there's a whole bunch anyone else could. If it means spending your own money and giving these away, then bless you.

Sure five records doesn't seem like much....but there are only five records by a lot of greats too....this "sam" thing is not a good argument. If random selections were made by artist only, then you would hear a lot LESS of this - and also, I'm a bit pissed that we get 17 different version of Yes and Crimson tunes, but can't get Salem Hill's "Be" fo instance on here. So please no hiding behing the sam anymore. And I'll repeat this point......you are increasing the base of these songs. This makes the likelihood of Don Cab playing more.

I completely disagree with you about the "negative faction" - I do not like this music - but I'm not going to bitch about it. This might be hard to believe, given my posting propensity, but I have better things to do. Otherwise I'd be screaming when I hear the following: "Genesis is overrated,", "My guitarist is better than yours", "Later King's X is as good as early", and "Permanent Waves is a bad record, late 80's Rush is the best" (Thanks Michael R. for that gem).

In conclusion, I prefer not to hear Don Cab....but I understand it is needed to have a full musical experience. But we hear a lot more than we should, considering that it is only one artist of many on the Moon. A true random play would mean you'd hear a lot less of everything.

So come on at me I'm ready!

[progdirjim]

Wow, good discussion.

Now, as far as removal of some Don Cab goes. If any is removed, the process will go something like this:

Jim will listen to every stinking Don Cab song. If there are a FEW that he feels are unworthy, he will run them by Roger dot for a second opinion. If Roger dot agrees, we will pull those songs and post about it. I'll try to include a brief "why" they were pulled.

I don't want people to think that songs will get yanked just because one or two people complain about them. If a lot of people complain, that will drive me to give another listen and reconsider. Philip Glass "Music in 12 parts" is a good exampe -after pretty much everyone in the forums complained about a piece of music I KNEW was a stretch when I added it, it got removed. The remainder of Glass's moon presence is still there, and it will stay. Regardless of public opinion on those, I like them.

For the record, I'm somewhere between Spaz/Zvinki/Moses and Keith/Rick on Don Cab. I like all of American Don, even "Peter Criss Jazz" But I think less of them than the folks who have used words like "genius" and "Damon Che gives drum lessons here" The heavier stuff gets closer into complexity without structure, which I'm not a huge fan of. But if I relisten to something that's heavier than I like, and I find value in it, it will stay.

Rick commented in another thread that "Jim likes everything on the moon", and that's almost true. I like, or have some respect for, everything on the moon.

Continue to comment! I ultimately go by my opinion and instincts, but as I remain open minded, your opinion can have an effect on mine.

[Yesspaz]

I said above that I expected this would deteriorate into a "kill 'em all" debate. It hasn't. Hats off to you Mooners. I apologize for thinking lowly of the whole crew.

That being said, I'll comment. Jim said he KNEW "Music in Twelve Parts" was a stretch. Well, I knew that him adding the four tracks I listed above would be about the same. So if I was the boss I might even delete those four myself.

As for SAM, there's nothing to hide behind. SAM is a fact. He is the software that makes things work. If there is no request on tap, he pulls a song. It happens. As for me building that base, um... yeah. And if Don Caballero reformed and released a sixth album, it'd probably be added to the Moon too. So...

Let's compare some artist song counts...

Don Caballero - 43
Starcastle - 31
The Tangent - 9
Gentle Giant - 55
Can - 11
Tangerine Dream - 73
Hatfield and the North - 13

My point is simply that some artists are more prolific, regardless of how "classicly prog" they are. Starcastle is more the definition of prog than Don Caballero, but they didn't produce as many albums. So, when SAM chooses randomly, Don Cab will play 43x to Starcastle's 31. Any variance is due to request. (The other variable is that perhaps not all of an artist's material on on AM, such as Acquiring the Taste by GG).


All that is beside the point. The question is not "how often is it playing" but rather "is it too extreme to be playing?"

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by progdirjim
Jim will listen to every stinking Don Cab song. If there are a FEW that he feels are unworthy, he will run them by Roger dot for a second opinion. If Roger dot agrees, we will pull those songs and post about it. I'll try to include a brief "why" they were pulled.


And for my part, it'll likely go something like this:

"Wow. Jim wants to pull those, eh? Hrm, let's give 'em a listen and see what's going on." Download download download

My response after a listen will go one of two ways:


Wow. That really is a stinker. I'll fire off an email to Jim that offers to remove them myself while he composes the reason,

or

Wow. I don't know why he's so down on this stuff. It's really not all that bad, considering it's [insert artist name here] and fire off an email giving my point of view.



For the record, I'm somewhere between Spaz/Zvinki/Moses and Keith/Rick on Don Cab.


And I personally lean much closer to the Keith/Rick end of the scale, mainly because I'm not a big fan of discordance for discordances sake.

But I'm going to take each request on a case by case basis.

Roger -Dot- Lee, not a big fan of GY!BE, but they're still here, aren't they?

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
So, when SAM chooses randomly, Don Cab will play 43x to Starcastle's 31. Any variance is due to request. (The other variable is that perhaps not all of an artist's material on on AM, such as Acquiring the Taste by GG).




Like I said twice before.....random play should be by Artist perhaps. You want every Zappa on the Moon? That would be 258682x.

And there are artists NEVER picked by Sam I am.

BTW, I'm not a big Starcastle fan.

That's a reason I played a Acquiring the Taste cut on my show, cause it's not yet on the Moon.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
Like I said twice before.....random play should be by Artist perhaps. You want every Zappa on the Moon? That would be 258682x.


Actually, there are only 257 individual Zappa tracks on the station. And I have very little control over what gets played when. Random is truly random, except within the confines of the requesting and repeat rules. Every other time it generates a random number, grabs the track, and queues it up.


And there are artists NEVER picked by Sam I am.


This is quite the mistaken impression. Zappa does, in fact, get selected randomly by SAM. I know this because during my graveyard tenure, there would inevitably be a non-requested Zappa chart popping up.

Yes, I know it's non-requested because I'd look to see who kept requesting it. It was never the same Zappa, but it would show up all the same. Different song, different time, same ol' Zappa.


BTW, I'm not a big Starcastle fan.


Who?


That's a reason I played a Acquiring the Taste cut on my show, cause it's not yet on the Moon.

Good. Let me know where it is and I'll add it to the library.

Roger -Dot- Lee, needs to get caught up with Gnosis too.

[Rick and Roll]

What I meant about the Zappa was if you had all of his output, there would be more of that than any other artist to choose from. I was responding to the prolific comment....I meant "do you want to see all the zappa that was released make it on the moon".

I'm sure there are some artists not picked.... wasn't singling out zappa.

The Giant is deleted....as I am deleting my played playlists per request. I thought it was not allowed to add uploaded songs. I thought it had to be donated. That's the issue I was raising.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
What I meant about the Zappa was if you had all of his output, there would be more of that than any other artist to choose from. I was responding to the prolific comment....I meant "do you want to see all the zappa that was released make it on the moon".


Ah, I see. I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have been dutifully clued. Thank you for being so gentle.


I'm sure there are some artists not picked.... wasn't singling out zappa.


Oh my yes. There are many that aren't picked, even if they have scads of tracks on the Moon. Yes gets remarkably few random hits, same with Zappa.


The Giant is deleted....as I am deleting my played playlists per request.


Who made that request? It's contrary to what I was told, especially in conjunction with what Gnosis does. Jim: is this not the case? Can we not put stuff that's been played on the playlist? Avian told me that the arrangement was that we get to use whatever's played. That may have been strictly Gnosis, but...

I'd really like to know if this is the case. If not, I've got a LOT of work to do in removing the older Gnosis stuff.


I thought it was not allowed to add uploaded songs. I thought it had to be donated. That's the issue I was raising.

Obviously your information is at odds with mine. I think I'd like to get a ruling from Jim on this. We may have to discuss this.

In the mean time, leave your stuff up there in case we can use it. I'll go ahead and delete it if we can't.

Roger -Dot- Lee

[Yesspaz]

Avian told me at one time he was considering adding the Gnosis tracks to the requestable list. At present, they are not. I know because of certain songs I've heard and looked for - not there. If simply playing a song on the station moves it to the library, then that gives all us show people way too much control over what gets in there. I could switch to a song-at-a-time format and there ya go. I could play every song I've ever wanted added to the Moon that Jim vetoed, and it's on. In other words, I am pretty sure shows are isolated. Jim told me one of the reasons he likes having shows is to have a venue to play things that should get a once or twice airing, but not necessarily added full-bore to the station.

[Rick and Roll]

I'll leave up this week and subsequent in a "used" folder. I'll only keep the songs there not on the moon.

I think i was able to add moon songs w/o removing them from the list...i'll check later i have another upload or two to do first.

if that's indeed the case, I can upload full cd's...and they can be reviwed...but i'll wait.

Amendment based on Spaz's post......(came in same time as mine)

this is what I understood too spaz. But I am talking about more stuff like "Acquiring The Taste".....not songs or cd's that are marginal prog. I'd never push for tool to be added, but i'd play it.

i completely agree with you Spaz.....although i'm a bit confused still on full cd's.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Avian told me at one time he was considering adding the Gnosis tracks to the requestable list. At present, they are not. I know because of certain songs I've heard and looked for - not there. If simply playing a song on the station moves it to the library, then that gives all us show people way too much control over what gets in there. I could switch to a song-at-a-time format and there ya go. I could play every song I've ever wanted added to the Moon that Jim vetoed, and it's on. In other words, I am pretty sure shows are isolated. Jim told me one of the reasons he likes having shows is to have a venue to play things that should get a once or twice airing, but not necessarily added full-bore to the station.

Strange, because I got the go-ahead from Avian. If it's not there, it's because of one of a few different reasons:

It's older stuff that I haven't gotten to yet.
It's newer stuff that I haven't gotten to yet.
It's from a timeframe from around last Feb. to Apr.-ish when we had the hard drive die on us and the files no longer exist.


But You bring up a very good point: SHOULD we put things up on the station, simply because they've aired? For Gnosis, I'd say some, since it's some very bizarre and off-the-wall stuff. But we might want to take a very long look at anything else.

Maybe we should look at it on a case-by-case basis; things that are definitely prog but we don't have because we can't find it should go on the station, but stuff that has been vetoed stays off. That sort of thing.

I'll hold off on adding anything new from the shows until I get some sort of guidance on it. There's also copyright issues we're going to have to consider.

Roger -Dot- Lee, if'n it ain't one thang, it's anuther.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
There's also copyright issues we're going to have to consider.

Roger -Dot- Lee, if'n it ain't one thang, it's anuther.

There it is in a nutshell.

Two things spring to mind, though. For old CD's that we just haven't obtained, I'm not sure if this is a big problem. Adding Acquring The Taste in order to complete the GG set, a 1971 release, hardly seems an issue.

The second thing is one would hope that the artist would love to have their music played. We're not copying it for distribution or resale, we're playing it. And as little as these artists make, that's a good thing. I was stunned to find that DFA's studio record I have is not on the Moon (but the live is). I'm sure they would be happy to have it on any playlist!

I'm still addled about the Spaz donations, and whether they were added by a giveaway or uploading. I have bought I think 4 CD's for the Moon (none in a while), and I couldn't imagine spending that much money. Please enlighten me.

[RogorMortis]

I can't help adding theses couple of points. I have bought an IPOD and now added 4437 songs, of which pratically everthing of Yes is there. But the random system does not choose more Yes songs because of that. Perhaps SAM works in the same way.

And then it makes a difference to listen to a random song of 0,04 minutes than one of 30 mins. The latter always will weigh more in peoples minds either postive or negative.

The law of statistics says that the randomising should be equal in a length of time. I feel perhaps the fact that the 4 tracks in the center of the discussion because of their sheer length drives people up the wall and that in a while they will not be played as much as they are now. In others words wait a while before making a decision in that respect.

But the management have always the right to remove a track either because of sheer amount of complaints or because of the poor quality of music.

And I'm not complaining.:)

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
I'm still addled about the Spaz donations, and whether they were added by a giveaway or uploading. Well, 98% the stuff I've donated was on AM before I had a show, i.e. before I could upload. That leaves one obvious option. ;)

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Well, 98% the stuff I've donated was on AM before I had a show, i.e. before I could upload. That leaves one obvious option. ;)

so between that and the church, you really are impecunious!

::)

[roger]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
impecunious! very impressive! :D

[alians2]

I've liked all of the Don Cab songs that I heard, including the ones that are being maligned. I have requested some myself. The drumming is particularly enjoyable, and I also like the bassist a lot.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by alians2
I've liked all of the Don Cab songs that I heard, including the ones that are being maligned. I have requested some myself. The drumming is particularly enjoyable, and I also like the bassist a lot. Smart guy!:D

[KeithieW]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Smart guy!:D

It's a bit naughty registering twice under different names Spaz. :p