Request Free Days

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Greetings.

As you all well know, Jim and I were toying with the idea of taking the idea of Request Free Wednesday and taking it to it's logical conclusion: Request free month of April. The reason behind this is because of the positive response and reaction we've received with RFW. Turning requests off on Wednesdays, in this listener's opinion (and yes, I do listen, I don't just work here) is one of the best ideas we've come up with.

That particular idea seemed to garner a lukewarm reception, to say the very least.

So that particular idea has been shelved, but a few alternatives cropped up that definitely got our attention. But, in all fairness, let's take a look at ALL the ideas that have been bandied about:


Remove requests entirely for the entire month
Turn the idea of RFW on it's ear and make every other day request-free, except Wednesdays, where requests would rule the day (so to speak).
Alternate request free days
Leave it alone, don't break what's working, etc.
Remove RFW and let the listeners run roughshod over the library (you can tell where I stand personally on this particular idea).
Send Dr. Dot a round trip ticket to England so I can hang out with the British Contingent for a while and catch some good Prog Tunes in a live setting (OK, I made this one up. I still think it's a good idea!:D )


So what do YOU think? Do you have any great ideas as to how we can take a good thing and make it better? SHOULD we take a good thing and make it better? Should we take a good thing and eliminate it entirely, thus opening the door to massive overrequesting and the end of the world as we know it, followed by the degeneration of western civilization and rule of the entire planet by cockroaches? (OK, so I exaggerated that last bit).

We want to hear from YOU, the listeners. Post your ideas. Let us know. Jim and I don't do this just for ourselves, you know. :D

Roger -Dot- Lee, who really wouldn't mind that last option, regardless of the fact that it has little or nothing to do with the subject at hand

[Bob Lentil]

I generally don't request unless I hear a song that impresses me, and I want to hear more of that band's material. Given this, I probably would be slightly annoyed if I heard something great at the beginning of a request drought and had to wait an extended period of time to further explore the band. More request free days sounds great, but I'd prefer to see some space around them.

[jnighting]

Maybe one more request free day would be good. I don't request as much as I used to but do like to go request crazy now and then. However, I can't remember a bad day of listening, request free or not, so whatever the majority goes for, I'm an AM lifer regardless.

[VAXman]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
Greetings.

As you all well know, Jim and I were toying with the idea of taking the idea of Request Free Wednesday and taking it to it's logical conclusion: Request free month of April. The reason behind this is because of the positive response and reaction we've received with RFW. Turning requests off on Wednesdays, in this listener's opinion (and yes, I do listen, I don't just work here) is one of the best ideas we've come up with.

I didn't and don't see that as being the logical conclusion.



That particular idea seemed to garner a lukewarm reception, to say the very least.


From the responses to the poll, I'd say your lukewarm assessment requires an endothermic boost.



So that particular idea has been shelved, but a few alternatives cropped up that definitely got our attention. But, in all fairness, let's take a look at ALL the ideas that have been bandied about:


Remove requests entirely for the entire month


This is an alternative? The poll already indicated this was not an alternative.



Turn the idea of RFW on it's ear and make every other day request-free, except Wednesdays, where requests would rule the day (so to speak).


One day a week set aside? Sounds too judeo-christian to me.




Alternate request free days
Leave it alone, don't break what's working, etc.


If it ain't broke...



Remove RFW and let the listeners run roughshod over the library (you can tell where I stand personally on this particular idea).


That is, more or less, how AM has worked for 5 years. It's still going strong from what I can ascertain.

When I found the moon it had attributes that the other stations did not:

1. MP3 stream... not forced to use some inferior s/w to listen to it.
2. Requests ( not that I make many but it's an interesting option)
3. A large library.
4. Little prog metal.
5. Little metal...

To date, 1 still stands. 2 is in jeopardy. 3 is ever increasing -- a definitive plus. 4. is waning... and so has 5.

Really, making AM completely request free is a draconian as when WNEW went to talk radio format.



Send Dr. Dot a round trip ticket to England so I can hang out with the British Contingent for a while and catch some good Prog Tunes in a live setting (OK, I made this one up. I still think it's a good idea!:D )


Would you settle for tix to ROSfest?



So what do YOU think? Do you have any great ideas as to how we can take a good thing and make it better? SHOULD we take a good thing and make it better? Should we take a good thing and eliminate it entirely, thus opening the door to massive overrequesting and the end of the world as we know it, followed by the degeneration of western civilization and rule of the entire planet by cockroaches? (OK, so I exaggerated that last bit).

I don't see the MASSIVE OVERREQUESTING. OK, there was a time not too long ago with our favorite TFK requestor but that's not reason to revamp the way the moon has operated successfully for many years.

I would like to see some better tracking to determine whether these requests are being made by the same enitity. The some simple policing if it gets out of hand.

[sharcnorris]

Other Stations Play the English classics almost exclusivly. The beauty of the Moon is YOU DON'T. But...... There is a reason why the Giants have sold Millions and the obscure haven't. Sometimes I'm guessing that Requests holds the balance of the popular and the unknown. Also in hearing Artists I don't own , I cherish the Moon allowing me a way to hear more. This has turned into many disc buys -be carefull not to mess with your mix.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by VAXman
I didn't and don't see that as being the logical conclusion.

What, that I don't listen? Or that I don't think it's one of the best ideas we've come up with?

Would you settle for tix to ROSfest?


In a word: YES!

When is that, anyway? I've been busy lately and haven't been able to keep up like I should.


I would like to see some better tracking to determine whether these requests are being made by the same enitity. The some simple policing if it gets out of hand.

So would I. Unfortunately I'm limited to working with the tracking facilities at hand.

However, now that Postgres 8.x is out, and it has much better support for apache log importation, a quick and dirty perl script in conjunction with a couple of tables might help me track things like this a little more closely.

[VAXman]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
What, that I don't listen? Or that I don't think it's one of the best ideas we've come up with?


I just asking that you think back to the great New Coke debacle. I'm not a Coke drinker but I recall that changing the formula that the faithful preferred caused quite an uproar.

In a word: YES!

When is that, anyway? I've been busy lately and haven't been able to keep up like I should.

It's the last weekend in April 29, 30 and 1 May. Time is slipping away.



So would I. Unfortunately I'm limited to working with the tracking facilities at hand.

However, now that Postgres 8.x is out, and it has much better support for apache log importation, a quick and dirty perl script in conjunction with a couple of tables might help me track things like this a little more closely. [/B]
BTW, there's a bit of pricey hardware here that would like to be doing a bit more than presenting itself as a collection surface to airborn dust particles. ;) I could probably track request careful with a router syslog.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by VAXman
I just asking that you think back to the great New Coke debacle. I'm not a Coke drinker but I recall that changing the formula that the faithful preferred caused quite an uproar.


I remember that. I also remember distinctly that 'Classic' coke wasn't the same thing as the pre new-coke coke. If I wanted to drink Pepsi, I'd have drunk Pepsi. So I switched to Mt. Dew and haven't looked back.


It's the last weekend in April 29, 30 and 1 May. Time is slipping away.


I have a free ticket on Airtran that's burning a hole in my pocket. I wonder if I can get a seat up there. I also wonder what kind of restrictions I'd face...


BTW, there's a bit of pricey hardware here that would like to be doing a bit more than presenting itself as a collection surface to airborn dust particles. ;) I could probably track request careful with a router syslog.

Well, now that my free time quotient has suddenly escalated, I'm sure I can start working on projects that have had to fall by the wayside. You'll likely be seeing more of my presence there in the coming weeks...

Roger -Dot- Lee, we need to move anyway.

[VAXman]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
I have a free ticket on Airtran that's burning a hole in my pocket. I wonder if I can get a seat up there. I also wonder what kind of restrictions I'd face...


If you're serious, I woundn't wait a minute longer.

I'll find out what's avail in ROS tix in the interim.




Well, now that my free time quotient has suddenly escalated, I'm sure I can start working on projects that have had to fall by the wayside. You'll likely be seeing more of my presence there in the coming weeks...


Excellent.

[mossy]

I don't have much to add to what I've already said, except why change what makes the Moon what it is. Who wants automation...we have enough in this life.

I haven't been requesting as much these days but that's not the point. I've been turned on to so much new music because of another moonies passion for something I've never heard before. That is priceless! Don't take it away.

SAM could be quite useful in showcasing the new additions, as I mentioned before, and I could get behind SAM doing that one or two days a week, but that's about it.

The Moon is unique because it gives people a chance to be involved in something that is near and dear to them, instead of simply being passive listeners.

I would be very disappointed if the Moon became more SAM's domain. It would be a step backwards in my opinion....and for what.

I understand that the folks who frequent the black box and white aren't the only listeners, but as Vax mentioned, if massive over requesting is causing concern, why not look at that instead.

Thanks for the thread, Dotty. :0)

[progdirjim]

I must not be a great communicator. This started out as my idea, as a whim. But I did like it, as did Roger. The reasoning was not to stop a particular overrequestor. It was that Roger and I were both enjoying the mix more on Request free Wednesdays, compared to other days. There simply was more and better variety on Wednesdays. So we thought it might be a good idea to expand request free times.

We are not considering removing requests from Aural Moon.

What we're asking about is how much variety do you want. It's a "fact" that there's more variety on request free days than request days. So, is one request free day a week too much? Too little? just right? etc.

I'm not terribly inclined to remove RQ free Wed. But I won't add RQ free days without a show of listener support.

Please continue to comment...

[sharcnorris]

Originally posted by progdirjim


What we're asking about is how much variety do you want.

I think the definition of "variety" is at issue. Again this seems to mean the less known, not deeper cuts of the Giants. Ifeel that every 6 cuts I like to recognize 1. Again I'm guessing that REQUESTS fills that void. I doubt 1 day a week w/ noR's bothers anybody, I fail to see how that"logicly" leeds to a month without. Tweek but don't ignore that it IS the Classics that bring us to the Moon in the first place. Variety is only better if the offerings are good, not just rare.

[kevishev]

Originally posted by progdirjim
......This started out as my idea, as a whim. But I did like it, as did Roger.

Gee, wish I'd thought of that... :rolleyes: ;)

Kev

[Rick and Roll]

I'll try this all at once.

Even before I had a show I requested little. That's mainly because I listen not as much as others. Now I request nothing. Also, I try to play as much new additions as possible, and I take requests. What I do when my show plays is move up the current requests to play before my show so people don't have to wait. I try to get in 45 minutes before and clear the queue (so there's not a 4 hr wait to hear a rq).

What I'm trying to say is that although I like random music better, the requests are crucial to a station's survival. Don't mess with the requests.....BUT, how about limiting them? Even if I agree 100% with another's musical tastes, it's not fair to have them request more than once or twice a day.

You may find that last statement at crosspurposes with my situation. I have a show. However, I submit that I put a great deal of effort into the show and then I basically disappear (at least from selecting songs). I get three hours a week (and repeats), but I really take the time to select a show that I think people will like.

Request free Wed is perfect. To further augment it, can't we try to limit requests by listener? As it stands now, from my eyeball estimation, about 50% of daytime songs are requests. Getting that number to one in four would be optimal. Also please remember that there are no requests during shows, so inherently they are "no request times".

All that being said, SAM is no treat for this reason: There is too much of some artists on the Moon that are duplicate. Yes, Crimson, etc have live records that dominate the playlist.

In summary, I vote for keeping RFW, limiting requests to two per person per day (I'm really tired of the SAME long songs requested too damnit!), and keeping a watch on the distribution.

By the way RL, I'll be doing two Rosfest shows on the Scale....

[kirk]

dot- this problem drags on and on....
and again i'll suggest that you change the way
requests are made.

move requests to a public forum
( remove the birthday forum if you need the space...
why is that still here?):rolleyes:

that requires persons making requests to be
forum members ( IMO- a good thing),
and allows the rest of us to aid in the policing.

there's those of us that have an agenda
(requests for kerry livgren, pain of salvation, ect.
...say no more)...
...those that are attempting to foist their superior tastes
in music on the rest, requesting music from their collections,
and likely, bands using fanlists to promote.
i have to say that would be tempting.
i could probably convince the majority of my mailing list
(over 700) to drive you insane (but i won't.....yet :D

k

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
I'll try this all at once.

Even before I had a show I requested little. That's mainly because I listen not as much as others. Now I request nothing. Also, I try to play as much new additions as possible, and I take requests. What I do when my show plays is move up the current requests to play before my show so people don't have to wait. I try to get in 45 minutes before and clear the queue (so there's not a 4 hr wait to hear a rq).


We're going to have to take some time to discuss this in depth later. In short: don't do it. That one hour delay is in for a reason, and circumventing it endangers our ability to provide requests entirely. I personally believe that waiting until after a show for your request is far preferable to not being able to make those requests at all. Wouldn't you agree?


What I'm trying to say is that although I like random music better, the requests are crucial to a station's survival. Don't mess with the requests.....BUT, how about limiting them? Even if I agree 100% with another's musical tastes, it's not fair to have them request more than once or twice a day.


We've discussed ways of doing this in the past, and they either proved to be too onerous to the listenership or too difficult to implement.


Request free Wed is perfect. To further augment it, can't we try to limit requests by listener? As it stands now, from my eyeball estimation, about 50% of daytime songs are requests. Getting that number to one in four would be optimal. Also please remember that there are no requests during shows, so inherently they are "no request times".


I disagree with the last portion of this statement (mainly on semantical grounds). They're not so much 'no request times' as much as they are 'one person request times'. Yes, they're themed, and yes they DO in fact go a long way toward playing more than the same old long songs.

Ya know, now that I think about it, having the "Dr. Dot Randomness Show" a few times a week might not be a bad idea. Three hours worth of tunes generated by me hitting the 'select random song' button.

Or maybe a script would do just as well (only there's really no way of telling how long that would run, since I haven't figured out how to program that in as yet, and I'm not likely to in the near future).

OK, enough rambling on that particular silliness.

As for the rest of the statement, I think that's what we're trying to do. The bottom line is that we're trying to get more of the obscure tunes out there, so we don't become 'All Flower Kings All The Time'.


All that being said, SAM is no treat for this reason: There is too much of some artists on the Moon that are duplicate. Yes, Crimson, etc have live records that dominate the playlist.


I disagree here, too. From what I've seen going through the logs on RFW, there is no overabundance of Yes (or any of the other groups that have multiple albums on the station). In fact, there are certain instances of RFW where King Crimson didn't get played at all (a refreshing change, in my opinion, since I'm no fan of any of the incarnations of KC).


In summary, I vote for keeping RFW, limiting requests to two per person per day (I'm really tired of the SAME long songs requested too damnit!), and keeping a watch on the distribution.


heh. I await the wailing on this particular idea (I'm still getting asked when the delay between RQs will go back to 60 mins from 90).

Although, how about the idea of allowing two per day but removing the delay between requests? That way you can queue up your two requests and be done for the day.

(put that bat down, Spaz, I was only joking about that last part).


By the way RL, I'll be doing two Rosfest shows on the Scale....

Good. I'll be looking forward to it. I'm still trying to see if it's possible for me to make it up to ROSfest my very own self (AirTran is currently investigating to see if they can squeeze me in -- I should have an answer this afternoon).

Roger -Dot- Lee, would love to make it if I can.

[Rick and Roll]

I'll try to reply.

I'm not being clear about what I'm saying about the queue, or you're not telling me now what you and Jim have told me before. So let's leave it at that. I'll talk to you sometime about it, but not today, and I won't move up rq's.

So it's too onerous and difficult to limit the number of requests but ok to have a request free month?? Horsehockey. I should have let vax's reply stand...he had some fine points.

If you can implement an hour delay you can implement 12.

I'm continually confused by your hints at doing things like "programming songs to play" or "implementing changes". If you want to say you can do anything you want because you have the technical know how...well you've said that a lot. So just do it then if that makes you happy.

I do not consider RFW the only non-request times. When SAM fills in tunes around requests, that counts too. And I know that's full of the same bands because there's more of them. Maybe you are not looking at a large enough sample.

Look, I'm tired of being the bad guy here just because I'm opinionated. We agree on most of it. Look at others' ideas (posting your requests for all to see and no rq at all) and that should be more what you should debate.

Time to enjoy a Saturday night....and we'll chat maybe by pm (I think I'm boring everyone and and I'm tired of discussing it here).

I just want to do my show and that's it. I don't want to make any of these decisions.

Anyone else weighing in?

[lotus]

Originally posted by Roger Lee




Although, how about the idea of allowing two per day but removing the delay between requests? That way you can queue up your two requests and be done for the day.

[/B]

That's IMHO is an excellent idea

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
I'll try to reply.

I'm not being clear about what I'm saying about the queue, or you're not telling me now what you and Jim have told me before. So let's leave it at that. I'll talk to you sometime about it, but not today, and I won't move up rq's.


Communications breakdown, it appears. We'll talk. But I don't recall ever saying to anyone, at any time, that it was SOP to move requests into the play queue. If Jim said so, let me know and he and I will get our stories straight. However, I kinda doubt it since it could lead to licensing issues in regards to the request functionality. And if you need to pad some time before your show, let me know. I'll show you a handy trick that Spaz showed me.

I don't make these restrictions up simply to amuse myself, Rick. If I did they'd likely entail such restrictions that every other show be done with a faux french accent or something equally silly. I do this so Jim won't have to talk with Lawyers and others of their ilk.


So it's too onerous and difficult to limit the number of requests but ok to have a request free month?? Horsehockey. I should have let vax's reply stand...he had some fine points.


OK, bad word. Difficulty to the user isn't what I was thinking. Distasteful would be more along the lines. The actual onerousness regarding users would be that what would show up in my mailbox should I implement a 12 hour RQ restriction or something like that. Perhaps I was thinking 'odious' or something equally impressive. English confuses me sometimes.


If you can implement an hour delay you can implement 12.


Yes, I can. But do we WANT to? The entire point is to encourage the play of stuff that isn't the 'standard'. If that's all we really wanted to do, we could save Jim a lot of dough on new CD purchases. But we don't want to, do we?


I'm continually confused by your hints at doing things like "programming songs to play" or "implementing changes". If you want to say you can do anything you want because you have the technical know how...well you've said that a lot. So just do it then if that makes you happy.


Methinks you're reading too much into what I'm saying. If I really wanted to do just whatever I felt like doing without input, we wouldn't be discussing it. I'd have already done it.


I do not consider RFW the only non-request times. When SAM fills in tunes around requests, that counts too. And I know that's full of the same bands because there's more of them. Maybe you are not looking at a large enough sample.


I'm looking at the station history going back to Feb. 2004. If you have access to more data, share.


Look, I'm tired of being the bad guy here just because I'm opinionated.


You're not a bad guy just because you're opinionated, Rick.

(anymore than I'm a bad guy because I have poor impulse control when it comes to taking cheap shots at friends.)


We agree on most of it. Look at others' ideas (posting your requests for all to see and no rq at all) and that should be more what you should debate.


I'll debate what I see fit to debate, and ignore what I don't. Nothing new there.

As for Kirk's idea, I'm mulling it over and will reply to it when I can either pull together sufficient technical foo to pull it off or sufficient reason why it wouldn't be practical. That's one of those ideas that a snap decision can't really be made on for a number of reasons.


Time to enjoy a Saturday night....and we'll chat maybe by pm (I think I'm boring everyone and and I'm tired of discussing it here).


Looking forward to it. It's apparent to me that we've got a communications issue that needs to be straightened out.


I just want to do my show and that's it. I don't want to make any of these decisions.


Sometimes, I feel just that way myself.


Anyone else weighing in?

Roger -Dot- Lee, 165 lbs, bantamweight with a bad back and a penchant for puns.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by kirk
dot- this problem drags on and on....
and again i'll suggest that you change the way
requests are made.


Tell me about it.

move requests to a public forum


This alternative is sounding better and better, actually. But what we'd need is some sort of quasi-dedicated moderators (for lack of a better term) to keep an eye on things.

move requests to a public forum
( remove the birthday forum if you need the space...
why is that still here?):rolleyes:



Space really isn't the issue. It's the time and dedication required to monitor the request bin. It would have to be monitored on a 24x7 basis by at least one person (likely more). And if we happen to have a lapse where nobody is watching, how long will the RQ sit?

Not that I'm rejecting the idea, just trying to figure out how to make it work.


that requires persons making requests to be
forum members ( IMO- a good thing),
and allows the rest of us to aid in the policing.


Good points, both. But again, what about during off hours? Who's going to volunteer for the midnight-6a shift (time zone optional).


i could probably convince the majority of my mailing list
(over 700) to drive you insane (but i won't.....yet :D

k

Roger -Dot- Lee, Insane? Been there, done that, got vacation photos.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by kirk
that requires persons making requests to be
forum members ( IMO- a good thing),
and allows the rest of us to aid in the policing.


k

I talked to some friends over the last month and they like the option of visiting the Moon w/o the Forum postings. We also have a lot of regulars who visit the Moon w/o the Forums. I however am not one of them lol......

Policing is not really needed if you limit rq's to two a day. If there are, say, 30 requestors w/ 2 songs each @ 7 minutes avg a tune, that's 420 minutes, or 7 hours. That's plenty. Why have the same people rq all day anyway? (It's always #'s w. me, even at midnight w/ 2 bloody mary's and a few other drinks in my system :D ).

Dot, we're square. Your last post explains everything, and we're:cool: Just get vax to but you a drink at RoSfest, I'm not responsible for the consequences.:p

[Michael Rawdon]

I like the requesting system. I don't make a large number of requests (a few a week at my peak). But I do enjoy having the feature there. I use it to listen to specific artists I'm interested in, and also to change the program - in a small way - to something I enjoy if the recent fare has not been to my taste.

I don't have much complaint these days about anything being overplayed. I would rather not make it even harder for people to request tunes, or to eliminate requests entirely.

So put me in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" column.

[progdirjim]

OK, executive decision - no changes to request policy at this time.

If Dot and I come up with what we think is a good idea, we'll post again.

And I reserve the right to DJ some obscure (but great, IMO) music from time to time;)

[kirk]

Originally posted by Michael Rawdon
Iand also to change the program - in a small way - to something I enjoy if the recent fare has not been to my taste.


exactly. one of the root causes of the problem, #2 on my post.

i say let jim drive the bus, avoid the "too many cooks" scenario.

he could use requests to sweeten the paying membership package.:D

one last point re:
> I talked to some friends over the last month and they like the option of visiting the Moon w/o the Forum postings.

i don't think it would be too big a burden to drop in once
in awhile, let jim & dot know that footing the bill,
spending countess hours keeping things sorted is appreciated.
let's not forget that this is a labor of love, not a public service
that we're entitled to.

kirk

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by kirk
i don't think it would be too big a burden to drop in once
in awhile, let jim & dot know that footing the bill,
spending countess hours keeping things sorted is appreciated.
let's not forget that this is a labor of love, not a public service
that we're entitled to.

kirk

You'd be surprised at how many people seem to believe just this. Case in point was Our Favorite Overrequester who, when they got their request priviledges removed, essentially sent the email equivalent of a petulant two year old stomping and screaming because Mommy wouldn't buy him a toy.

Fortunately the vast majority of users understand that we do this in our spare time (though some need to be reminded of this).

But I've got more time to invest these days, so I'll be more of a fixture (until something else comes along and rips what little free time I might have from my firm white-knuckle grasp).

Roger -Dot- Lee, "NO! MINE! MINEMINEMINEMINE!!!"

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by kirk
[
> I talked to some friends over the last month and they like the option of visiting the Moon w/o the Forum postings.

i don't think it would be too big a burden to drop in once
in awhile, let jim & dot know that footing the bill,
spending countess hours keeping things sorted is appreciated.
let's not forget that this is a labor of love, not a public service
that we're entitled to.

kirk [/B]

Most of the friends I talked to who stated they visit without hitting the forums are musicians. :D I've been working on having them spread the word about Aural Moon.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by progdirjim
OK, executive decision - no changes to request policy at this time. Excellent choice, I say. I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with the system as it is now? The RFW is phenomenal, but RQing is what made me stick with AM when I first looked for prog internet stations.