Where is all of the Dream Theater???

[John Galt]

On a whim I thought I would see what all Dream Theater songs were on this site's list. Much to my surprise I found there were only seven songs!

I thought, "no, that can't be right, maybe they just don't have much newer stuff." So I looked up Spock's Beard, and found a whopping 85 songs.

I have a Spock's Beard CD (V), and while it has its good parts, it has nothing on any of my DT CDs.

So I am forced to conclude that you don't have much because of their heavy metal leanings, which brings me back to a thought I've had many times before. How can people musically flexible enough to listen to prog be incapable of enjoying heavy metal? It makes no sense to me. Maybe you older people have some deeply ingrained metal-phobia. It would take no less to deny the greatness of Scenes From A Memory (or for that matter The Great Debate, or Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, or Honor Thy Father, or Octavarium, etc.). Do you realize that Dream Theater is the most popular progressive rock band among teenagers?

Perhaps the reason prog has been dwindling the past 2 or 3 decades is that any new band, no matter how talented, with a different sound isn't accepted by the prog community. Then most of the other bands are labeled derisive. A few manage to toe the line (The Flower Kings), but don't have anything to offer younger listeners.

And lest you dismiss me as a know-nothing teenager, I must tell you I didn't stumble onto progressive rock after listening to Dream Theater or TOOL like most young proggers (to tell you the truth, I don't know any "young proggers" besides myself, but I know they exist, if only because they post stuff sometimes), but instead went through my dad's 90125 tape, and another Yes song on a computer game (Homeworld), and the good things my dad said about Rush (no tapes, though :( ). I now enjoy King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Peter Gabriel Genesis, Pink Floyd, and many other bands (finally managed to appreciate Tales From Topographic Oceans a coupla' months ago, took forever).

So if you ever find yourself wondering whatever happened to all the good prog that seemed so abundant many years ago, pull yourself out of the seventies, and bring yourself into the 21st century, you musically stagnating, closed-minded, middle-aged adult (or should I say... schizoid man ;) ).

Just in case you wanted a teenager's point of view on your site.

[roger]

Originally posted by John Galt
you musically stagnating, closed-minded, middle-aged adult (or should I say... schizoid man ;) ).

welcome, John.

did you do a search of the forums for Dream Theater? there's been a lot of discussion about them here.

ah, youth...

[Bob Lentil]

Hmm. . . I just checked my calendar, and I wasn't expecting this thread until next week.

Thanks for your post, John. We need these every once in a while to keep things interesting. Dream Theater discussions always seem to pull people out of the woodwork.

[Rick and Roll]

Before we start replying in a visceral vein I would like a crack at this.

Hi John, it's good to see you've at least found Aural Moon worth the trouble to sample. It's appreciated. I'm a DJ here, and my favorite music is heavy music and prog.

Let me tell you my personal feelings about Dream Theater. I have seen them five times. I have six of their CD's. When you make a statement like "maybe they don't have much newer stuff", maybe you do not know the band that well.;)

I am all for expressing opinion. And contrary to what others may think, I am open-minded. But I do not like to be lectured, nor do I enjoy being pigeon-holed into a category.

I've seen, heard, and enjoyed more true metal than you ever will in your lifetime. Dream Theater is not true metal. I really thought they were something at first, but as time passes, I realize most of it is a wankfest. I can still enjoy more of "Awake" and about 20-30 percent of the other records, but the band is limited in it's shelf-life. They're almost TOO talented.

The reverence to Dream Theater makes me ill. they're a very good band that has put out some good music. They're not deities.

You need to realize that there is a lot of heavy music on the Moon. You are being self-limiting by professing a reverence to what I consider an regular band.

Liquid Tension Experiment, Transatlantic, OSI, and any other Mike Portnoy-involved projects - all on the Moon. Oh by the way, Mike Portnoy is Dream Theater's drummer.

And Mike Portnoy is a collaborator and great friend of Neal Morse, who was the force behing Spock's Beard. I seriously doubt that Portnoy thinks his DT records "have something on Spock's Beard".

Oh and Porcupine Tree is more popular now than Dream Theater, my friend. And us fogies love Porcupine Tree too.

Your statement about prog dwindling and no bands to offer younger listeners is a total mistake. You obviously do not know 98% of the great music out there.

Before you insult the other young listeners to Aural Moon (they are many), try soliciting their opinion. You may find that YOU are the closed-minded old man.

By the way, I've played whole shows on old metal bands, recent metal, and in-between. Try sampling some...but be sure to research before you automatically close it off.

I am 41 years old, and I've been to 400 shows. Not only can I outlast you at a Dream Theater show, but I can hang better than you in most activities.

And our slightly older program director could probably even top that. Speraking of which, we've debated this quite a bit. Our program director has made a decision. Try the close to 12,000 other songs here, and play your Dream Theater in private. That's what I do.

I appreciate your comments, John, but it's posts like these that make me NOT want to play any dream theater on my show.

Finally, I've played Sabbath, Maiden, and Judas Priest on my show. not nec prog, but that's the music I grew up with. And Tool also has been played...a favorite of mine.

One more finally...:D most listeners of Gentle Giant are much more tolerant than you.

[Yesspaz]

Round 8! Fight!

Ok, everyone take a deep breath. Relax.

Seriously, welcome to Aural Moon John Galt. Nice to meet you.

1. I might suggest, as Roger did, doing a search of the forums for "Dream Theater" and checking out the posts. I call this round 8 because by my count you are the eighth newcomer to make one of their first posts about the absence of DT. Each time it's the same response. So to get the management's position on DT, the easiest way is to read those old threads. It'll be the same answer here.

2. For the record, we've got a lot of teenagers here, and a lot of folks in their 20s here too, myself included. I'm 26, so if you do the math, I was born in 1979, and didn't really get aware of any music beyond my parents' tastes until my teens, as is most people's experience. That was the 1990's. One of my first Yes experiences was hearing "The Calling" on the radio. All that to say that (A) your experience is not unique, and (B) don't assume because we don't have Dream Theater we are a bunch of old fogeys. In fact, our library has over 15,500 individual tracks, and growing weekly, and much of that is new. Watch the "What's Playing Now" window and you'll see what I mean. In fact, I just checked it and the six things showing are 2003, 2004, 1980, 1999, 2003, and a liner.

3. Might I suggest in the future that you make friends and share your live of porg before calling out the station for being made up of "you musically stagnating, closed-minded, middle-aged adult (or should I say... schizoid man)" type people in your first post on the site. It's not the way to get people to welcome you, be friendly, etc. (as evidenced by RickandRoll's post - sorry rick! :D )

4. Welcome to the MOON! And even though the Program Director has chosen to shy away from most Dream Theater, don't let that run you off. Stick around - I've been to other prog-radio sites and we truly have the best community here. Listen for a few days, chat in the white room (upper right corner of main page) and shout in the black box. Make requests and start jabbering away!

5. Finally, since you seem to like virtuosity and metal, here are a few suggestions from the playlist to try out. You may already know of these and have them, so forgive me if I seem redundant. Some of them have members of Dream Theater in them.



Liquid Tension Experiment
Bozzio Levin Stevens
Tony Palacios
Explorers Club
Anekdoten
Yes - the album "Talk"
Djam Karet
Rush
Porcupine Tree
Opeth
The Tangent
Platypus
OSI


and not on AM, but nonetheless


The Devin Townshend Band
King's X
Stratovarius
Static-X
The Jelly Jam

[zvinki]

From a fellow Dream Theater (and Tool) lover, welcome to the Moon John. If your vocabulary is any indication, you are intelligent and, therefore, will probably stick around and sample the sounds here. Don't let us old folks (45 years old here) scare you off.

(Good suggestions Spaz)

[podakayne]

well...welcome john. i'm not going to add anything to the arguement for DT...i think the posts above me articulate the many reasons for their diminutive presence on the playlist.

i will, however, take note to your mention of being close-minded, middle -aged...etc, etc, etc.....our program director(Jim) is very open-minded, well-versed, well-traveled, remarkably ageless (as most of us are) and is always willing to put some new group to the listen test. that being said take note if you come across music you think should be included—please pass it on to his ears. there is a ton of music on the playlist "as suggested by aural moon listeners". so careful what you imply.

this is a community of music lovers that span several...le'me say that again...several age groups...with diverse taste even within this genre. we are tolerant of many opinions....but please dont start bashing the prog vets with lines like close-minded...it's sooooo....frell! it's just wrong!

be welcome...have fun...bring friends
poda

as typoed by Yesspaz
...share your live of porg...

sorry Yspaz that one had me laughing out loud:D

[John Galt]

When I said "newer stuff", I meant relatively. Some stations only play music from the seventies. Yes, I know Mike Portnoy is the drummer (rolls eyes). And Transatlantic is most of the reason I have a Spock's Beard CD. I'll try not to be mad at you for being patronizing since there are so many other DT threads.

But I still feel I need to show you how ridiculous this is.

They're almost TOO talented. they're a very good band that has put out some good music.So clearly there are no problems with the quality of the band.

there is a lot of heavy music on the MoonNo problem there either.

That leaves an argument that I found in response to many of the threads, that DT isn't progressive enough. With your 6 CDs (versus my pitifully ignorant 5), especially if one is Scenes From A Memory, it should be very hard for you to deny their progressiveness.

If a concept album with ten minute songs and really wacky times signatures strewn about isn't progressive, what is? (they do have a lot of VERY progressive stuff besides that, SFAM is just the easiest example)

Now to respond to the off topic comments:

Oh and Porcupine Tree is more popular now than Dream Theater, my friend.What? Among teenagers? Let's see, I know maybe a dozen people, at most, that listen to DT, not including you guys on the internet. The number of acquaintances that I know listen to Porcupine Tree: ZERO. None. At all. Take into account that I know two (2!) people who come close to being progressive rock fans, and I get a totally different picture. Maybe on the Moon, but down here on Earth (around Houston, Texas, anyway) things are a bit different. I know Radiohead fans, but no PT.

Oh wait, there was that one girl's dad, but... no, he doesn't listen to much prog anymore, so he doesn't count.

I realize most of it is a wankfest.just like I realize that Yes is just a bunch of college know-it-alls, and King Crimson is just Robert Fripp noodling around on a guitar, and Peter Gabriel is just a wanna-be opera singer, etc., etc. Either way, I prefer wankfest to some of the cheesy Spock's Beard songs I know are on here any day.

Your statement about prog dwindling and no bands to offer younger listeners is a total mistake. You obviously do not know 98% of the great music out there.and you obviously do not know 98% of younger listeners.

Before you insult the other young listeners to Aural Moon (they are many), try soliciting their opinion.When did I insult younger listeners? I'm sure they would comment if they disagreed.

You may find that YOU are the closed-minded old man.I'm trying to expand the music played on this station, not narrow it.

Not only can I outlast you at a Dream Theater show, but I can hang better than you in most activities.Yeah... I have no idea what that means.

Try the close to 12,000 other songs here, and play your Dream Theater in private. That's what I do.I'll probably end up doing that, too. But not playing DT on a prog station just seems... silly.

it's posts like these that make me NOT want to play any dream theater on my show.The music, too, right?

most listeners of Gentle Giant are much more tolerant than you.I'm sorry if I seemed intolerant. It was late at night, and sometimes I enjoy writing provocative stuff to get a reaction. Your untenable position made it pretty easy, though. But it's good to see you're awake.

I hate to admit this, guys, after the comments I got about it, but I'm not really a fan of TOOL... not yet, anyway.... DT, System of a Down, and the Deftones are about as far as I've gotten into metal. Like I said, I got to DT from prog, not the other way around. Sorry to disappoint you.

Ironically, the reason I came to this station in the first place is because my last one (Delicious Agony) seemed to only play newer music, like DT, and the classics.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by John Galt
It was late at night, and sometimes I enjoy writing provocative stuff to get a reaction.

True - for some reason I should have seen that. I just can't stand that line of reasoning. Flaming is so pointless and unproductive.

After being at work, then five hours with my promising venture, I wonder why I even am responding.

Now you may have the last word.

[John Galt]

Does that make it any less true?

[roger]

John,

do you understand that walking into a community and insulting a lot of the people there doesn't make it very likely that they will listen to your arguments, no matter how well founded?

[Wojtek]

Hello John,

welcome to the Moon.
I am 21 and as a representative of youngsters here there is only one possible comment on your accussations of lack of open mind on Aural Moon. This comment is mega-ROTFL!
I agree that there is lot of nostalgia here, many Moonies look for the spirit of the times they were growing up in but for God's sake it's not the whole AM style. It's essence is the mix of generations, mix of spirits. That's why middle aged Moonies enjoy also Porcupine Tree, thats why I enjoy when for ex. Wishbone Ash is played. THAT is the Aural Moon.

Now strictly about DT. Again I agree with you. DT is pure prog, they are evolving but always in progressive style, every album is a bit different but Portnoy cares about the progressiveness. I consider latest release Octavarium as a perfect release for the Moon, because of it's classic prog ROCK (not metal) feel. Especially title epic, with echoes of Hackett, IQ, Neal Morse, with the beginning as in Floyd's Wish You Were Here.

BUT

We are small community, that's why we don't have to be 'politically correct' in aspect of playing what we should, what's most popular etc, so personal tastes are clue factors of what is played here. Taking that into consideration I fully constent to decisions connected with personal tastes of AM bosses because even if I don't share this point of view in given situation (and as I said I consider DT prog) they are doing such a marvellous work here that such matters are absolutely 'excusable'. So I'd like Octavarium here but if it's not I'll request sth different and thank AM crew for their great work.

BTW. I see grain of truth in the arguments against DT on AM because of their show-offish way of playing. It irritates me too (I don't like Awake). But they have quite many compositions in which there is great, 'tempered' progressive rock. I highly reccommend Octavarium as a release for the Moon (maybe apart form opening track ;) ).

So to sum up, you wanted to provoke. Miss. As we here say the bullet is in fence.

[Yesspaz]

Oh, and Brother Galt, if you're around today (Wednesday) and are trying to request, don't think we've banned you. Wednesdays are request-free.

[MrMagoo]

Does anybody find it a tad ironic that "John Galt" is preaching that others change their ways? Here's a quote from John Galt in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged: "I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine."

So now I must ask: "who is John Galt"? :)

[John Galt]

When I said "Does that make it any less true?" I was referring to the conspicuous absence of DT, NOT all the intolerant, insulting remarks I made. The purpose of that was to get your attention (it was fun to write, too). If I actually believed that stuff I wouldn't still be here. The bullet may be in the fence, but I have the person I was shooting at's attention.

Then again, maybe that wasn't necessary. But it was fun to write.

Thank you, MrMagoo, for asking that. But I do seem to remember him making a 3 hour long speech TO OTHER PEOPLE. You could almost say he was "preaching that others change their ways." Or maybe I should just change my name to Ellsworth Toohey.

[roger]

Originally posted by John Galt
(it was fun to write, too).

Then again, maybe that wasn't necessary. But it was fun to write.

you enjoy insulting people that you don't even know? now that is disturbing. hopefully youth as a whole don't follow your lead. :(

[moses]

Hi there everyone!

It's me, Moses. I'm just posting because I haven't in a while, although I've been reading faithfully. I really have nothing to add to the thread that hasn't already been said, except...

Welcome to the Moon, John!

No wait, that's been said also. :D But not from me. So there it is.

Usually what I do when I don't have anything to add to a thread but I want to post anyway is hijack it. So...

Remember that time I brought up punctuation in a thread hijack? That was funny, but with a sad ending. But now it's happy again. :cool:

First thing that came to mind. Discussion on this topic need not ensue, unless it wants to. It was in the Yngwie thread, I believe.

[John Galt]

I wouldn't say I enjoy insulting people I don't even know... although that may be a side affect... more that I enjoy writing fiery propoganda every once in awhile. It's not very often that I have a good cause (excuse) for writing it, though.

Unfortunately youth as a whole don't follow my lead... but think, if they did, progressive rock would be as popular (or more so) as in the seventies, and Britney Spears would be the leader of some dying underground pop movement. Prog (including Dream Theater, but not Spock's Beard ;) )would replace country on the radio, and the world would enter a golden age of knowledge and enlightenment such as has never been seen. All in all, not such a bad place.

See, I can write happy propoganda, too. :D

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by John Galt
Unfortunately youth as a whole don't follow my lead... but think, if they did, progressive rock would be as popular (or more so) as in the seventies, and Britney Spears would be the leader of some dying underground pop movement. Prog (including Dream Theater, but not Spock's Beard ;) )would replace country on the radio, and the world would enter a golden age of knowledge and enlightenment such as has never been seen. All in all, not such a bad place.

The progressive movement is better than at any time, including the 70's. It's fallacy that prog is the "anti-pop". As a percentage of what is listened to, talked about, etc, it's very popular.

Every generation has their Britneys. Top 40 and the like was still the predominant music back then, and even country. All of that has no effect on the popularity of prog.

Underground pop movement? That's an oxymoron. Try to understand that you will never change what sells. Just enjoy what you enjoy. Who says it would be better if prog was played on the radio. Then what? Prog top 40?

Who really cares about the popularity of things, John? Just relax and enjoy it, and don't live in a pretend world where you are the king of pop culture. I don't care who is the "best" drummer,etc.

I would never play a tune on my show based on sales. But, I'll happily play pop and lighter music is it's what I like, and I have an ear out for others.

I dislike country music, but I wouldn't want it replaced. If others like it, so what?

We are in a golden age. Open your eyes and enjoy it.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
I would never play a tune on my show based on sales. Ah, but do we not often NOT play a song on AM if it's TOO popular? :D

[Wojtek]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
Who really cares about the popularity of things

I do. It's very frustrating when you can't buy your favourite CD's in the city and have to wait till late night to hear prog music in the radio. If not AM...

[Cozy]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
The progressive movement is better than at any time, including the 70's.

There are a few elements that support this: the progressive rock festivals, the internet, the internet radio movement, the sheer number of albums being released. These all give the "illusion" that the movement is flourishing.

That said, I disagree that the progressive movement, which had its ties in social and political concerns and affected music beyond rock, is stronger now than when it began.

festivals - while several/year, most attract just a few hundred attendies.

internet - even the largest forums have just a smattering of ACTIVE participants. And a lot of these progressive rock forums have many of the same people.

internet radio - even one of the best stations on the net only has a limited appeal (a few hundred listeners). Many other "prog rock" stations are lucky to have 20 listeners.

# of albums - Every garage band and "one-man band" can find an audience given the internet. This "indie" approach gives the impression there are a gazillion albums being released today. To an extent this is true. There were at least 1,000 progressive related recordings released in 2004. But how many of those does anyone own? Most of those 1,000 recordings will be lucky to sell 500-1,000 units over the next 5 years.

Don't get me wrong. I'm grateful there is even an audience out there. Interest does generate support. Support generates interest. But the movement itself is still very, very small.


- Cozy

[Rick and Roll]

with the proliferation of many other options, everyone's market share dwindles. "Regular" TV has shrunk, for instance. Not only is there cable TV, there are many other media sources since the 70's. We shouldn't forget that crucial element.

I suppose it's like comparing to inflation, if you get my meaning.

I don't suscribe to "movements", I just meant the interest level. I'm not a big "movement" guy. In fact, I dislike the tie-in from other things to music.

By pure #'s, the progressive movement is indeed lower. And maybe even as a comparison by share to other music, it's about level (pop being the majority, country a lot, etc). But it's comparatively as strong as it ever was.

There's just more activity to occupy one's time these days.

(I must be old... life w/o the net...cable..etc..wow)

[Cozy]

Originally posted by John Galt

Perhaps the reason prog has been dwindling the past 2 or 3 decades is that any new band, no matter how talented, with a different sound isn't accepted by the prog community.

Well, I'm not sure how this ties into Dream Theater. DT is certainly not "new". I've been listening to the band when you were still trying to figure out what 2+2 meant. :D

To a degree though, your point has merit. Many of the new bands are retro, devoted to capturing the style of the 70s bands. Other new bands are playing in a style that captures modern sound and technique, but still very much tied (and somewhat dependent) on those same 70s bands. When new bands defy the concept of emulating classic 70s bands, they will alienate some of the community. Shit happens.

There is nothing wrong with that. But there are several of us that do seek new music out. I am a DJ here (Interzone) and have a collection of several thousand albums, and I set my own personal "constraints" pretty broadly. That said, I feel no need to defend just where I set them.

And while I consider my particular tastes to be fairly broad, I don't criticize others if they prefer to set limits to what they wish/don't wish to hear. My show, however, is largely dedicated to those who wish to hear something beyond what they know. I play a lot of familiar and not familiar bands, and play a hell of a lot of jazz. I'm pleased to say that the reception has been great and very open-minded. Which leads me to one conclusion...

....even the close-minded prog fan is usually more open-minded, or at least "receptive" than most music fans. And the Aural Moon regulars are a testament to that. They don't deserve to be labeled as close-minded.


Originally posted by John Galt
pull yourself out of the seventies, and bring yourself into the 21st century

Ironically, you've said this as you've dove into your dad's collection. ;)



- Cozy

[Cozy]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll

By pure #'s, the progressive movement is indeed lower. And maybe even as a comparison by share to other music, it's about level (pop being the majority, country a lot, etc). But it's comparatively as strong as it ever was.

I've mentioned numbers a lot on various forums because a lot of people have the perception that a certain album sells 50,000 units, when in fact it sold 10,000. And ones they think sell 10,000, sell 1,000, and many not even that.

A festival that ran out in LA (10 million + several million in outlying areas) "ProgFest" couldn't even bring in 500 people in 2000, with a great lineup (Banco, Kenso, etc).

But the internet can change our perception to just how popular the movement is as we immerse ourselves deeply into the minutia of the concepts of progressive rock. Now we can talk to a bunch of people who actually know who The Flower Kings are!

Most of these festivals, albums, etc are all being market to the same several thousand fans over and over and over again. Only a handful of albums each year are recognized much outside that small fanbase.

Within that constraint, yes I agree that the movement is alive and well (though maybe in need of a little shakeup).


- Cozy

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Cozy

Most of these festivals, albums, etc are all being market to the same several thousand fans over and over and over again. Only a handful of albums each year are recognized much outside that small fanbase.

- Cozy

Good point.:cool:

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Cozy
Many of the new bands are retro, devoted to capturing the style of the 70s bands. Other new bands are playing in a style that captures modern sound and technique, but still very much tied (and somewhat dependent) on those same 70s bands. When new bands defy the concept of emulating classic 70s bands, they will alienate some of the community. Shit happens.
Exactly! I've said this many times in many threads. What frustrates me is that when a new band actually does something NEW in the prog field, such as Godspeed You Black Emperor! or Tortoise or The Mars Volta, they get a very polarized reaction. Some people LOVE what they do and some simply HATE it. But these bands rarely get good reviews by prog circles because, while being influenced by 70s art rock bands, they don't practically worship them. More often, they don't get ANY reviews because they're not on the dozen or so "prog labels." See, even prog is commercial. There's great prog going on out there, but it's not being called prog for two reasons. #1, prog is a bad word in music criticism so when a label gets a good prog band they promote them as anything but. #2, Prog has become as hackneyed and commercial as anything else. You have to sound "prog" to be on a prog label. When's the last original sounding prog album come out of the dozen or so established prog labels? They are few and far between. It's easier to put out mix-n-match bands of the same musicians reshuffled over and over than to take a chance on something new. What we end up with is not bands that are influenced by 70s prog making new fresh prog. What we get is clones - Citizen Cain wants to be Gabriel-era Genesis so band they can't stand it.



Originally posted by Cozy
Most of these festivals, albums, etc are all being marketed to the same several thousand fans over and over and over again. Only a handful of albums each year are recognized much outside that small fanbase. Yep, and when prog bands do get noticed out there, who are they? Invariably they are the ones not on traditional prog labels - i.e. bands that aren't trying to fit into a "prog mold." For instance, Sigur Ros has a song in the climax of the movie The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou. Ever seen Isildurs Bane or Transatlantic on a movie soundtrack? The Mars Volta sold out the Tabernacle in Atlanta. Most prog festivals draw no more than 500. Once Rush, Yes, and King Crimson call it quits, the biggest prog bands in the world will be Dream Theater and The Mars Volta, and prog fans generally don't accept them because they didn't follow the approved prog-road-map to success (I daresay DR and TMV are bigger than KC and Yes already).

...rant over..., man I am gonna hear it for this...:confused:

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
when a new band actually does something NEW in the prog field, such as Godspeed You Black Emperor! or Tortoise or The Mars Volta, they get a very polarized reaction. Some people LOVE what they do and some simply HATE it.


man I am gonna hear it for this...[/I]:confused:

Not so, I agree with everything you said (especially the Citizen Cain part).

The only thing I disagree with you about is the quote above. I submit, as Townsend says (and Entwistle sings) in 9:05 "everything I do has been done before".

There's nothing new about those bands, really. TMV polarizes people because of the vocals and the frenetic pace of the music. It's the same reaction as Gentle Giant used to get or in my personal case, Peter Nicholls' voice.

In other words, they love or hate it it because of the style, not the lineage. The lineage is the case to the casual listener maybe, and certainly appliciable to pop hair band metal, but not as much prog anymore.

Godspeed isn't really doing anything not tried before. Some people dislike it because it takes them an hour and a half to watch 60 minutes.:eek:

[Cozy]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
See, even prog is commercial. There's great prog going on out there, but it's not being called prog for two reasons. #1, prog is a bad word in music criticism so when a label gets a good prog band they promote them as anything but. #2, Prog has become as hackneyed and commercial as anything else.

This leads to something I've said for a few years now...

"Progressive" is a dangerous word. It has an everyday dictionary meaning, and usually used in a positive context. When you apply that as an adjective to describe music, it implies that the music is "more advanced". To take it one step further, this leads to a lot music snobbery, a perception by the media that the fans of prog (and some of the artists) have a superiority complex. I'm sad to say that I think this perception has a stong basis in reality. While it's great how open-minded prog fans can be, their disdain for most commecial endeavors is quite prevalent.

See, we've set a standard that is impossible to meet. We want progressive rock to remain progressive. We often scathe bands who sound too much like another band. This "higher standard" has its pitfalls, because most of the music labeled as "progressive rock" are NOT progressive in that sense of the word. And the ones that are a little bit more original in their approach aren't necessarily actually "progressive" in thought and sound.

Personally, I try avoiding using the word as an adejective. Most people use it as a catchall, or misuse it in a way that is synonmous with words like "creative", "experiemental", "innovative", etc. This can lead to Mozart, John Coltrane, Bartok, and Evan Parker being labeled as progressive and being lumped in with Yes, Genesis, and ELP.

Maybe that is important for some, but it feels fairly arbitrary to me. I like music with guitar, but I wouldn't classify music from all different genres (rock, pop, jazz, classical, etc) and call music that sounds nothing alike "guitar music", if you get my drift.

Truth to me is that it's a name that some people way back when slapped onto some band like Yes and ELP and it stuck. "Progressive Rock" means to me basically th expansion and exploration of rock music beyond what was, at the time, a fairly simplified expression. So even a band like Citizen Cain is progressive rock to me because they are playing beyond the basic conventions of rock.


It makes for interesting discussion anyway... ;)


- Cozy

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Cozy
So even a band like Citizen Cain is progressive rock to me because they are playing beyond the basic conventions of rock.
Yeah, I agree with that. Progressive rock no longer means rock that pushes the boundaries, but rather rock that pushes the boundaries + rock that follows in the steps of those who pushed the boundaries. I actually think Citizen Cain is decent, just cloner. I'd never buy their stuff because if I want that sound, what's gonna beat Selling England by the Pound? I just get frustrated that when a band DOES push the basic conventions of rock (including standard prog as "basic conventions" now), they get little airing amongst prog circles. For all intents and purposes, Post Rock is the prog rock of the 90s. It'd never been done before, it was fresh, it broke rules, and it pushed boundaries. Prog grew from a disdain of pop and a love of classical and jazz. Post's roots are implied in its name: it grew from a disdain of pop and a boredom of the punk and hard-core of the 80s. Punk led to post-punk and hard-core led to post-core. Post-punk and post-core sort of combined and led to post-rock, an experimental and boundary pushing music that dominated the underground of the 1990s. In other words, the prog community completely missed the truly "progressive rock" of the 1990s and lots of it today.

They've become a slowly devolving oligarchy.


...Spaz takes cover from the impending volleys of anti-Spaz ordinance...





P.S. Rick, I see your arguments about the divide over Godspeed and Mars Volta. Per GYBE!, I guess some of us simply like funereal tempos (read: my love for Tarentel). Per Mars Volta, the thing about his voice kind of makes Mars Volta a textbook case of the argument outlined above. Mars Volta goes back to At the Drive-In. If you listen to the progression (there's that word), on AtDI's first album, they were simply a really good punk/core band, screeching vocals and all. But they got increasingly complex and experimental to the point that the final album as AtDI, "Relationships of Command," was what could be called "proggish punk/core." Their drummer and bassist were fed up with it, the band split, and the two pushing "our way" formed The Mars Volta, while the other two formed some already forgotten punk band. So, now we have a truly original prog band pulling from their various international backgrounds, with a wailing post-punk vocal style. Quite simply, it's compelling and provacative music (and FRESH), and there's nothing like it. I hate that his voice is an issue for some folks, because it grows on you, and if you like it, you're treated to some phenomenal playing.

Anyway, if you see my argument, here we've got a prog band that doesn't sound like <insert classic prog/kraut band here> and the prog community as a whole doesn't know what to do with it.



Wow, that's a really long P.S.


P.P.S., I've got nothing against you or your opinions, Rick. Anyone who lauds King's X can't be a bad guy (Sept. 27th marked on calender :D).

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Anyone who lauds King's X can't be a bad guy (Sept. 27th marked on calender :D).

Are they at it again! The only band I'd see alone. Maybe except for Devo:p

By the way, there will be a Kx song this week on the Scale....


how many re:'s can we get?:D

[podakayne]

this thread has really turned into a very interesting discussion...thank you John for fueling the fire...you even brought moses out again...

i've lots of head nodding in agreement on several points. in particular, i will agree with cozy on the said snobbery of the "average" progressive listener. as a personal defense to my own musical taste—which can go from Bach to Boncé, Wagner to Sarah Vaughan, Debussy to Sheik Yerbouti and lots more inbetween...what i choose to hold dear and near to my ear, as well as spend my hard earned cash on is going to fall within the prog parameters. my sisters often wondered why i so seldom invested in the R&B records back in the day(quoting them "she likes weird music")...hell i could hear that anytime(still can) or borrow theirs. i spent my money on music that wasn't going to be played by the top 40 am/fm stations and may well dissappear if i didn't capture it...i love classical, i love prog, i love avante garde, i'm an ambient-baby, with an insatiable taste for jazz both old, new, avante, fused and undefinable...and that still doesn't cover it. so close-minded would never descibe me, and if it makes me a snob so frellin be it.

i think we all crave to be individual and not just 1 of the masses, i don't mind being part of this smaller group because here i can be indivdual w/out having to defend or make reason of my musical choices. funny... i don't think i'd ever want this music to become as popular as "popular" music...i think it's very niche is what keeps it evolving, fractating(yeah i made it up—you get my meaning) and reconfiguring itself into new, newer or familiar forms. to have it accepted and become the music of the majority masses would kill it...long live prog!

okay my two cents turned out to be a nickle:rolleyes:

p.s. as for TMV vocals, well i like 'em and its taking a minute, but the same can be said for peter hammill, GG and a few other unusual vocal quality voices...love the delivery though...keep talkin. this was fun reading.

poda:cool:

[moses]

Now that I've been brought out... :eek: Whatever that means... ;)

Yesspaz talked a whole bunch about post-punk and post-core and post-rock. This got me to thinking... Is anyone currently making "post-prog?" Would this be (under a different name) the stuff that we call prog that really doesn't draw too much from the prog roots, or would it be a band who got bored with prog (I know, BLASPHEMY! :D ) and struck out in some new direction?

Or maybe those two are one and the same, now that I think about it. To keep in line with the thread, maybe Dream Theater is post-prog.

Rush and Enchant, anyone? ;)

[dinosaur]

First, I like DT's SFAM and some of their other stuff. Is it prog? Well, sorta. It's only a label, so who cares? Others in this thread have done great work discussing the fine points of prog, and open minds -- much better than I could. BTW, I also like many kinds of music. This morning, Yo Yo Ma is in my car's CD player, along with Bozzio-Levin-Stevens, Collective Soul, and Clepsydra. My wife has sung dozens of classical pieces with full orchestras (she's not wild about DT but loves Metallica, Judas Priest and White Zombie, to name just a few from one genre). The best thing about the AM community is the openness of its members.
My problem is this: JG's "firey propaganda" started this whole discussion. Not a good way to start things. Unfortunately, however, it worked, and I can see JG is proud of this fact.
These tactics work much the same way as negative political campaigns, not by changing minds, but by inflaming those who are already convinced.
But the fact that something works fall far short of making it right.

[Cozy]

Originally posted by dinosaur

My problem is this: JG's "firey propaganda" started this whole discussion. Not a good way to start things. Unfortunately, however, it worked, and I can see JG is proud of this fact.

In a way, I think it backfired. Sure, it's a shame when an intelligent discussion/debate can't stand on its own because someone refuses to discuss things rationally. But in the end, cooler heads prevailed and the end result was an interesting thread.


- Cozy

[dinosaur]

Originally posted by Cozy
In a way, I think it backfired. ...cooler heads prevailed and the end result was an interesting thread.


Good point, cozy.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by The Red Planet Emissary
funny... i don't think i'd ever want this music to become as popular as "popular" music...i think it's very niche is what keeps it evolving..., to have it accepted and become the music of the majority masses would kill it...long live prog!
This is something I started to comment on above (no offense, Poda.), but didn't because I'd already gone long. I think one of the reasons some bands like GYBE!, Sigur Ros, The Mars Volta, and King's X aren't accepted wholesale by prog circles is because they are accepted "out there." Once a band breaks out, they're no longer "our babies" and we don't like that. This happens in almost every single genre of music. Legions of underground fans run grass roots campaigns to get their little genre bands in the mainstream, and the second that they do then can't help but feel ambivalent about it. Their excited the band is making it big(ger), but they also feel a sense of loss and elitism.

I remember liking an idie band called P.O.D. back when nobody knew of them. I even knew enough to make it to a little club in Birmingham (when I still lived in Jackson) called The Crush, because P.O.D. had just signed with Atlantic records after three indie albums. Atlantic threw four CD release parties where $10 got you in the door and a copy of the fourth album (first on Atlantic). One was in the Ham. There were probably 300 people there. Six months later, P.O.D. had the #1 rock single in America, "Rock the Party (Off the Hook)" with a video on MTV's TRL. All of a sudden all my college buddies were like, "whoa, Spaz, have you heard this new band P.O.D.? This is a such a great band." They thought they'd made some great discovery. Yes, I was happy P.O.D. made it, but at the same time I felt a sense of loss because I was no longer part of that elite that helped get them there.

This might be a part of what is going on with bands like Sigur Ros and The Mars Volta. With the exception of Yes and Rush, anybody who can sell out The Tabernacle in Atlanta (Mars Volta) or open for Radiohead (Sigur Ros) or get used in a joke on Homestarrunner.com (GYBE!) is just too popular for most prog fans' tastes. We like to think we're the only ones who can appreciate these bands, and as soon as we see others doing so, we stop.

[podakayne]

no offense taken Yesspaz...so now i pose this question?

in theory does the sound change and loose it's flavor once it's tasted and accepted by the mass majority...or does the listener do a knee-jerk reaction now that "their" band is everyone's band and throw the baby out with the bath water? is there conformity of the group to the mass or the mass to the group?

"the spice must flow"
poda

p.s. does homestar really meantion G!YBE?:D ...haven't read that one and i know max wont get it.

:cool:

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by podakayne
is there conformity of the group to the mass or the mass to the group?


p.s. does homestar really meantion G!YBE?:D ...haven't read that one and i know max wont get it.
Probably a little of both. TMV definitely didn't conform to the masses, the masses conformed to them. Same with Sigur Ros. But with Porcupine Tree, their popularity increases the less prog they become. Depends on the artist would be my guess.

And yes, Homestarrunner.com mentions GYBE! is a very secretive Easter Egg. I'll try to find the link and add it here.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by podakayne
is there conformity of the group to the mass or the mass to the group?


p.s. does homestar really meantion G!YBE?:D ...haven't read that one and i know max wont get it.
Probably a little of both. TMV definitely didn't conform to the masses, the masses conformed to them. Same with Sigur Ros. But with Porcupine Tree, their popularity increases the less prog they become. Depends on the artist would be my guess.

And yes, Homestarrunner.com mentions GYBE! is a very secretive Easter Egg. I'll try to find the link and add it here.
Strong Sad's Blog (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sadjournal/1.html) is the place. Make sure you go through all the pages. Start at the bottom.


P.S. this is a cool one from there, C&P:

posted at 12:01am
current mood: more humbled than usual
current tunes: my own remix - The writings of Gregor Mendel read over some old Brian Eno stuff

[kevishev]

Originally posted by John Galt
So if you ever find yourself wondering whatever happened to all the good prog that seemed so abundant many years ago, pull yourself out of the seventies, and bring yourself into the 21st century, you musically stagnating, closed-minded, middle-aged adult (or should I say... schizoid man ;) ).

Hey John Galt! I resemble that remark!

I know I'm jumpin' in kinda late here, but It occured to me that you youngsters don't realize that back in the 70's, what we now call "Prog Music" wasn't called "Prog Music". We didn't know what it was, only that it was good. And we liked it. It seemed to go well with the consumption of controlled substances.

I go back to before FM radio stations began playing what was known at the time as "Underground" music. Stuff you wouldn't hear on regular (AM) radio. We had a local FM station (KFIG)where I grew up in Fresno, Ca. that began playing
"Underground" music on Saturday nights from 10:00 PM until midnight. They were a "Clasical" music station the rest of the time. I think it was 1971.

So, when did we start calling it "Progressive Music" anyway?

Welcome to the MOON John Galt.

Kev

[podakayne]

yeah kev...i remember back in the day—before it got labeled at all too...my sincerest thanks to TRIAD freeform radio playing 5 nights a week between the hours of 8-1am i think(it also played classical and folk music the rest of the time...who knew!), 1970-71 into the late 70s...and thank you sexy voiced Sal, where ever you are now, the dj who fueled my mind with what we now label progressive rock. making that station discovery late one nite in 1971 remains one of my best, most fond memories.

:o i am a dinosaur...somebody is diggin my bones


p.s. thanks Yspaz for the link;)

[kevishev]

Originally posted by podakayne
yeah kev...i remember back in the day....and thank you sexy voiced Sal, where ever you are now, the dj who fueled my mind with what we now label progressive rock. making that station discovery late one nite in 1971 remains one of my best, most fond memories.

Ah yes Poda, such sweet memories. I was just a barefooted punk in torn jeans and a stratocaster t-shirt. The "voice" that influenced my musical tastes was some guy by the name of "Carl" (god bless ya Carl, wherever you are). I remember Carl sounding very cool and very "mellow". His voice reminds me of the comedian Rick Wright now that I think about it.

They soon added Friday and Sunday nights to the "Underground" music shows and ran them until 2:00 AM. After about a year or so as I recall, the format was changed to all underground, all the time. I soon sported a new "KFIG" t-shirt that was festooned with a strat busting through a stone image of the station call letters. God I wish I still had that shirt!

Kev

"...so please be gentle, 'cause I'm an axe victim"

[progdirjim]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
This is something I started to comment on above (no offense, Poda.), but didn't because I'd already gone long. I think one of the reasons some bands like GYBE!, Sigur Ros, The Mars Volta, and King's X aren't accepted wholesale by prog circles is because they are accepted "out there." Once a band breaks out, they're no longer "our babies" and we don't like that. This happens in almost every single genre of music. Legions of underground fans run grass roots campaigns to get their little genre bands in the mainstream, and the second that they do then can't help but feel ambivalent about it. Their excited the band is making it big(ger), but they also feel a sense of loss and elitism.

I have to jump in here. While we've been known to not include a song or two because of "over" popularity, that is not my reasons for not including King's X, for example. I just don't think King's X is prog. I like them, own 4 CDs and plan on getting more. I would see them live if they ever came to San Diego. TMV I just haven't decided on yet. Sigur Ros and GYBE I added without hesitation.

I like enough bands that the masses NEVER will, that it's OK with me when a few make it. But, you have pointed out a common phenomenon

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by progdirjim
I have to jump in here. While we've been known to not include a song or two because of "over" popularity, that is not my reasons for not including King's X, for example. I just don't think King's X is prog.Song to song in my opinion!:D

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by progdirjim
I just don't think King's X is prog.

We have this same discussion in a lot of threads...Spaz mentions king's x, I say cool, Jim says they're not prog and I agree.

Spaz, King's X is one of my favorite bands. And they're not prog.

[John Galt]

Yeah I'm still here.

I haven't been able to get access to a computer for a coupla' days. When I left the thread seemed about dead. I came here with the express intent of saying, "Rick, does this mean you can't 'hang better' than me in the forums?" and forgetting all about it.

Instead it turned into a serious conversation. I really wasn't expecting that, it's nice (I could've done without the scattered insults, though - it's not fair to insult me when I can't argue back, lol). According to Dinosaur I was proud that that happened, even though it "backfired" on me. Funny.

But since everyone's being serious now and not (for the most part) going after me any more, I will attempt to be serious myself. So no exaggeration, inflammatory remarks (well, excluding the one I've already written), or propoganda, just what I think, as clearly and without deception as I can make it.

Podakayne said earlier that "to have [prog] accepted and become the music of the majority masses would kill it." I disagree. Here's why: If prog is more... I don't want to say popular... more well-known, then more people would listen to it. I know this is true because, although I don't know any prog fans (off the cp) I have had limited success marketing prog bands to a minority of people. This suggests that there is a reasonably large fraction of people who would become prog fans as a result of its "more well-known"ness. Not surprisingly, most of these people, in my limited experiences, have been musicians. Surely some of these musicians will begin playing prog rock. That means more for us! Think about it this way: If there was one progressive rock band in the world, no matter how good or amazing they were, they probably wouldn't even come close to being the best if everybody in the world was a member of a prog band (that was a serious exaggeration). Therefore my standpoint is, basically, the more the merrier.

Back to what Podakayne said. I'm assuming that by "kill it" she means water it down, make it less interesting. I don't see that happening. What I do see is Yes, Rush, and Genesis becoming fairly normal bands in the 80s. Would this have happened if prog was the music of the masses?

But the biggest reason I would like prog to be more popular (without the bad connotation) is to find an answer to the question, "If prog was mainstream, what would crazy people like us listen to?"

Now to defending myself. I'm a firm believer that the end justifies the means. When you insult someone, they tend to fight back. Rather than run the risk of being politely rejected, I decided to be radical and inflammatory. It almost didn't work. If Yesspaz hadn't reiterated and built upon my original remarks in more polite language, it probably wouldn't have. So I admit my approach may not have been appropriate in this case, however (;) ) it was fun to write.

Now to prove that the first thing Dino said about me, not the second (it seems to have magically un-backfired on me, actually)
is absolutely dead-on.

Out of all the Dream Theater threads, I think this one is the best - and I'm very proud of that.

Oh, almost forgot. Yes, Kevishev, I'm sure you do resemble that remark (sorry I couldn't resist).

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by John Galt


1) "Rick, does this mean you can't 'hang better' than me in the forums?" and forgetting all about it.


2) I don't want to say popular... more well-known, then more people would listen to it.


3) Now to defending myself.


4) Out of all the Dream Theater threads, I think this one is the best - and I'm very proud of that.



Since I can't split quotes/insert comments very well, please refer to each paragraph below and match with the ones above.

1) Your obsession with me is a bit scary (lol).
2) A very astute statement, you must have been up all night thinking that one up.:p
3) Defending yourself? No one really cares John about that...it's the discussion of the content that is important, not how you look.
4) Hardly. The thread started by Tommy (EP) was all about the music. Unlike this one.

It is highly ironic that my show this week is somewhat mainstream. You would have a field day with some of the songs I'll play.................

Welcome back John. When I am afk for about 1/2 month soon, feel free to comment, I don't mind. Actually I'm glad you have other interests.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
Spaz mentions king's x, I say cool, Jim says they're not prog and I agree. Pretty good summary. Sorry to even bring them up again, but I haven't listened to them in a long time and yesterday I cranked Tape Head for the first time in a while. SOOOO Good.

"I'll never hurt you.
I'll never bring you down.
I'll never kill you.
I'll always be around.
You don't know how much I hate you!":mad:

[John Galt]

I thought we were past this "attack John" phase of the thread! Sheesh!

All right, I'm going to have to fight back now (funny, you seem to be using my tactics).

What I meant by #2, to spell it out for you, is that many people would listen to prog bands if they knew they existed. I discovered it through sheer luck. To demonstrate what I mean, I once asked a guy (a Dream Theater fan) if he knew what prog was. He said "keyboard stuff" and proceeded to tell me that DT was not prog because they weren't keyboard oriented enough. Most people just don't know. If they did....

As for #3, when you start discussing the content and stop attacking me I won't have to defend myself. At least my last comment had a coupla' paragraphs of good content stuff. Yours didn't have any! And why do you assume that I will have a field day with somewhat mainstream music? It depends on what you mean by "somewhat mainstream."

Was that a Thread started by Tommy (EP) or about the Tommy (EP)? I couldn't find either, I guess I'm not looking in the right places. Anyway, I stick to what I said.

To put some discussion of content on this post (Rick, do you want to call a truce? All this arguing is starting to work against me.), I'll go back to that popularity discussion. When I asked that one girl's dad (the former progger one) about it, he said, "that's what we listened to back then." Obviously prog wasn't the mainstream thing, so I'll take that to mean it wasn't uncommon. Ugh... I can't make this go anywhere.... I agree with whoever said that post-rock was the prog rock of the 90s. I keep seeing GY!BE popping up in this discussion. I heard some of their stuff on the college radio station and bought Yanqui U.X.O. and Lift Yr. Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven. It's cool stuff, I didn't realize they were so popular.

[Rick and Roll]

Who's attacking you? I've not been doing that, especially in my last post. Disagreeing is not attacking.

Sorry about the Tommy thing. He was a DJ here. I didn't give you enough info.

The whole keyboard anecdote you mention is usually used by metalheads describing anything other than metal. I find that most people know...they just don't care.

GYBE pops up simply because it's a lightning rod. They're polarizing... If you can find it, check out the "rename GYBE thread".. it's a hoot.

[roger]

Originally posted by John Galt
however (;) ) it was fun to write.

you keep saying that. is it still fun when people get hurt? that's what bothers me. lots of things are fun, but they're not meant to be shared.


anyway, I've really enjoyed most of this discussion, and I think the concept of the effects of popularity on a type of music and/or groups is well worth discussing. it happens all the time.

[podakayne]

see john you fit in very well here...and no one is really attacking you, your character or anything else of a personal nature...so no need for you to defend yourself. if you wanna read attacks try searching out the 'old sod threads.

you have managed to elicit a great thread (though i agree the G!YBE thread is a real hoot too)...we obviously like the stimuli you provided...you held your own IMHO, not that i doubted that from the first post...there's good people here and some great debates...occasionally they may get heated or harsh but even then the participants dont hold grudges...i like that, civil disagreement...what a concept.

oh i like how you took my point to the other side...like better your question: "If prog was mainstream, what would crazy people like us listen to?" LOL, how true, how true...besides i like my snobbery everyone should have something don't you think?

poda

[kevishev]

Originally posted by John Galt
Oh, almost forgot. Yes, Kevishev, I'm sure you do resemble that remark (sorry I couldn't resist).

The only reason I'm not taking any offense to all this dear John, is because I know all too well that YOU will be an old fucker like me someday. Just like I know there'll be some smart-assed punk like you around to remind you about it too!

And I mean that in the friendliest possible way. No, I'm serious. You kinda remind me of myself at your age....... Maybe you're the one that should be offended....... :D

Kev

ps: You gotta forgive Rickandroll. He likes RJ Dio... :eek:

[VAXman]

Originally posted by kevishev
[B]The only reason I'm not taking any offense to all this dear John, is because I know all too well that YOU will be an old fucker like me someday.

Especially like today... today you're an official old fart! :p

[ThreeGonads]

Sorry I'm late to this fine discussion

Dream T, 90% of it is noise. I'm sure some of it elevates above this rating, but the pain of getting to it is too much to bear. Rating : PASS

Now for a real stench sniff some Enchant.

Ok, now that you're done puking.......


And any group that names itself after the male member, well, what can I say, you'd have to be a tool to like them.

Kid, yeah , you the one that started the thread, when you grow up, maybe you'll realize that after Michael Jackson and B Spears, there is no other music.

Party On Poopers.

[KeithieW]

Dream Theater?????????

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggg gggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's better. Now to get back to some Opeth......;)

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Keith Waye
Dream Theater?????????

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggg gggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's better. Now to get back to some Opeth......;)

Keithie, old shoe, I think you may have stated my feelings about Dream Theater AND John Galt much more eloquently than I possibly could have.

There are times I'm sad that I don't have as much time to devote to the forums as I used to.

And then there's threads like this.

If anything AT ALL beneficial has come out of this spewage, it's the impetus for me to get off my duff and learn the forum software. I found a couple of nice little bits of functionality with which to torment the unwise and preliterate. Now I just have to get the time and motivation to put them to good use. Shame I didn't take the time to discover it before Olde Sod annoyed me.

Does ANYONE know what demons possess customers of Southwestern Bell to become such cretinous chowderheads? I seem to recall that both Olde Sod and Our Favorite Overrequester were BOTH from that besotted ISP.

Roger -Dot- Lee, busy for the moment, but fed up enough to actually act.

[roger]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
I found a couple of nice little bits of functionality with which to torment the unwise and preliterate.
you going to share? ;)

or are these "features" just for the powerful?... :cool:

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by roger
you going to share? ;)

or are these "features" just for the powerful?... :cool:

Alas, unless you happen to be in possession of The Keys(TM), the ignition won't turn, and the fires won't light.

But what I CAN tell you is that there is now a user group called 'Chowderheads'. I'd add the likes of Old Sod as well, but I've already edited his user account to unusability, so there would be no point.

Roger -Dot- Lee, All Your Base Are Belong To Us! HA HA Hack

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by John Galt
Yeah I'm still here.


Are you ... sure?


(I could've done without the scattered insults, though


Then perhaps you shouldn't have written them, eh? You expected everyone to bow before your greatness because you thought it would amuse you?

I hasten to assure you that you are, in fact, not the only person on this planet that enjoys bringing others down and otherwise making them look (for lack of a more suitable word) like drooling knuckle-draggers. I'd like to point out the thread titled 'Happy Family?' as started by one Old Sod.

Assuming, of course, that you can.

And since you listed your birthday as 2-30-1988, I have my doubts, but that's neither here nor there for the moment.

Let us proceed with this wonderful little ditty we're going through, shall we?


According to Dinosaur I was proud that that happened, even though it "backfired" on me. Funny.


OK, let's assume for a moment that you actually do know what you're talking about. Occasionally you DO seem to be able to formulate a coherent sentence, so I'd imagine that that glimmer in your eye is in fact intelligence and NOT the light of the sun streaming through a hole in the back of your head.


But since everyone's being serious now and not (for the most part) going after me any more,


Au contraire. I'm both quite non-serious and very much going after you. Since everyone else has taken the substance of this thread and actually turned it into something civil, it leaves me with naught but a bit of amusement before calling it an afternoon...


I will attempt to be serious myself.


GAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!! *snort*

Oh, that's a good one!


But the biggest reason I would like prog to be more popular (without the bad connotation) is to find an answer to the question, "If prog was mainstream, what would crazy people like us listen to?"


If you're ACTUALLY being serious and ACTUALLY asking this without attempting to flame, or otherwise act like a chowderhead, I think the answer is quite simple: prog.

If you listen to a given bit of music based on what anyone else thinks of it, you're not crazy. You're not 'Unique'. You're a sheep. Pure and simple. If you listen to prog because everyone else doesn't, then perhaps I might want to direct you to the International section of your nearest Record Shoppe. I'm sure that they have a wide selection of Peruvian Alpaca Herder's music, or maybe "Polkas for Pythons" by the Burmese National Boys Choir. Nobody here listens to that! That in and of itself has GOT to be a solid recommendation based on your above paragraph.

I also find it rather amusing that you pretend to speak for "us" as in "crazy people like us". You got a dwarf in your pocket (ObBadFollowUp: Or are you just glad to see me?)?


Now to defending myself.
Limp, tepid attempt at self justification deleted


Sorry, this is getting too long as it is, and Mrs. Lee is waiting for me.


it was fun to write.


I again direct you to the thread called "Happy Family?" started by one Old Sod. I assure you, you are NOT the only one that enjoys ripping people new ones. Perhaps you can comment on that? Perhaps BEFORE I remove all the Dream Theater from the station? Not that I mind having it on here, you see. I certainly wouldn't do it permanently. Just long enough for you to notice, and perhaps fill that pair of Spiderman Underoos that you borrowed from Old Sod.

Have a nice day, and remember: Smile!

Roger -Dot- Lee, hugs 'n kissies!

[roger]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
the Burmese National Boys Choir.

I love those guys.

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by roger
I love those guys.

Yes, but are they PROG?

Roger -Dot- Lee, only for very small values of 'prog'

[roger]

they are in Burma... ;)

[VAXman]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
Yes, but are they PROG?

Roger -Dot- Lee, only for very small values of 'prog'

Dunno. I can't find any of their recordings a amazon.co.mm.

[Rick and Roll]

knows about the Burmese Boys Choir.

[roger]

mebbe I shoulda winked... :cool:

[ThreeGonads]

Please forgive me. I forgot to add Trinity to the list of detritus masquerading as prog.

What a stench.

[Yesspaz]

1. This thread's still alive?



2. Oh look, now we've got another flamer-type. Let me be the first to "welcome" you, ThreeGonads. First I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of criticizing Tool because they named themselves after the "male member" and then using the eloquent name ThreeGonads. Great visual. Second, your first two posts are the "this band sucks and you have no taste it you like them" type. Thanks for the positive influence you've added to AM.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
1First I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of criticizing Tool because they named themselves after the "male member" and then using the eloquent name ThreeGonads.

That's too funny!

By the way Spaz, I'm at work and can't blow up your pic. Who are the trio in the avatar? I thought Kx at first but doesn't seem right........

OK, Oysterhead. I just read your other post. I was in the general area...

[progdirjim]

hey Roger, wanna bet the three gonads are made out of old sod? even if not, can you relegate the pinhead to the same fate? please?

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by progdirjim
hey Roger, wanna bet the three gonads are made out of old sod? even if not, can you relegate the pinhead to the same fate? please?
I wouldn't be in the least surprised. I was waiting for him to give us enough rope with which to hang him, but if you can make a noose out of what he's given so far, then I have no problem kicking the chair (to run a metaphor completely into the ground).

Consider it done.

Roger -Dot- Lee

[mossy]

If I remember correctly, the word "stench" was used quite often by Sod, so you're probably right on the Gonads.

[dinosaur]

We have evolved from Dream Theater to Gonad Stench.
Don't blame me. I was extinct 65 million years ago.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by dinosaur
We have evolved from Dream Theater to Gonad Stench.
Gonad Stench. Hmm... sounds like a DC hardcore band.

[progdirjim]

Originally posted by dinosaur
We have evolved from Dream Theater to Gonad Stench.
Don't blame me. I was extinct 65 million years ago.

I've heard that one before - "it's not my epoch"....excuses excuses :D

[Symbolic]

Hi I'm the new to Aural Moon and I'd like to give my opinion about Dream Theater. They are withotu a doubt one of my favorite bands but I didnt expect to see them on this website. In fact, I can listen to them all I want from my own collection. I want to hear more progressive rock from around the world, experimental rock, art rock, jazz-fusion, etc. If I want to listen to DT, all I have to do is put it on. I like the collection of music from this website and if anyone believes that comparing a band like Spock's Beard To Dream Theater, or any other comparison for that matter, well they are entitled to it but I think its too subjective. Especially when you try to compare progressive metal with progressive rock, two different entities, with different approaches, different musicianship and a whole different point of view about what makes compositions "progressive". But anyways, good job with the website. I'll enjoy listening to the aural moon radio feeds :P

Thanks

Rick

[Rick and Roll]

that is lucid and makes sense....I can't stand it!:p

[podakayne]

must be telepathically linked today rick...that was my exact thought...scary hummm

poda
;)

p.s. welcome to the fold Symbolic

[progdirjim]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
that is lucid and makes sense....I can't stand it!:p

whose the first? :p

[podakayne]

touché...officer touché!

Originally posted by progdirjim
whose the first?:p

:D

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Symbolic
Hi I'm the new to Aural Moon and I'd like to give my opinion about Dream Theater. They are withotu a doubt one of my favorite bands but I didnt expect to see them on this website. In fact, I can listen to them all I want from my own collection. I want to hear more progressive rock from around the world, experimental rock, art rock, jazz-fusion, etc. If I want to listen to DT, all I have to do is put it on. I like the collection of music from this website and if anyone believes that comparing a band like Spock's Beard To Dream Theater, or any other comparison for that matter, well they are entitled to it but I think its too subjective. Especially when you try to compare progressive metal with progressive rock, two different entities, with different approaches, different musicianship and a whole different point of view about what makes compositions "progressive". But anyways, good job with the website. I'll enjoy listening to the aural moon radio feeds :P

Thanks

Rick

Attention Old Sod, Three Gonads, and John Galt: THIS is how a first post should be. Cool, collected, intelligent, nice, and non-confrontational. This guy is letting it be known that he's got something legitimate to say, so that later on if he wants to throw down the gauntlet, people will take him seriously. Welcome to the Moon, Symbolic.

PS: nice moniker.

[Symbolic]

Thanks to all of you for welcoming me. It's a pleasure to be amongst music lovers of all kinds and all ages. I have to say I sometimes feel alone in my age group as a prog fan. Even at concerts, I see very few youngsters in their 20s here, so I kinda feel out of place a little but what can I say, I like "intelligent and thought-provoking music" to quote Neil Peart. The normal radio, besides some classic rock tunes doesnt make my mind work, it gives me a choice between shutting it or the radio off, usually the radio meets its fate.

Thanks again to all of you :)

P.S. I never understood why justifying one band over another ever made someone feel more important or more knowledgeable.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Symbolic
I never understood why justifying one band over another ever made someone feel more important or more knowledgeable.

What a great line.......

[progdirjim]

Originally posted by Symbolic
I want to hear more progressive rock from around the world, experimental rock, art rock, jazz-fusion, etc.

We hope to be able to take care of your listening desires in regards to all of the above!

But anyways, good job with the website. I'll enjoy listening to the aural moon radio feeds :P

Thanks

No, thank you...

[dinosaur]

Originally posted by Symbolic
Even at concerts, I see very few youngsters in their 20s here, so I kinda feel out of place ...

I am one of the forty-something white males you see all around you at these concerts. Believe me, it is absolutely GREAT to see young people there. I wish there were more of you, and more of all ages and groups.

Welcome to the Moon, Symbolic. Enjoy the thousands of new sounds you'll find here!

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

Originally posted by Symbolic

P.S. I never understood why justifying one band over another ever made someone feel more important or more knowledgeable.

I never understood that either. Musical likes and dislikes are a personal choice, and in my omnipresent world view, attempting to belittle someone for their taste in music is much akin to judging a biker gang based on their taste in beer. It also displays a lack of maturity, devolving into those 'yo mama' jokes (or whatever's replaced them) on the middle school playground.

Roger -Dot- Lee, except rap, of course. And Brittney Spears (best listened to with the mute on) :D

[Yesspaz]

Symbolic, I'm one of thse 20s prog fans you DON'T see at shows because (a) I can't afford them ususally, and (b) they're rarely anywhere near the Deep South. Sigur Ros and Mars Volta sold out there respective shows in Atlanta before I could blink..., so my advice is to be happy you can see shows period! :p

[Symbolic]

Yeah I'm very appreciative that I can see all of these shows. I did get to see Mars Volta a few months back..that was quite a show...and one that sold out in a matter of days. I'm glad that I can live this musical interest, especially at shows.

[sharcnorris]

I love seeing the ELDERLY at shows!!!
At my Last Yes Concert,there was an elderly couple standing and pumping their fists, hooping it up, the whole show. The man was thin and frail clinging to a cane. It was a wonder to see!!!
Now if he was 35 in'69 (first Yes album), he was 70 at the show,
Funny thing was he looked younger then the cadaver looking Steve Howe!!p.s. I hope we all can enjoy our Bands when WE reach this age Of course we need YOUNG peolple at the shows, TO PUSH OUR WHEELCHAIRS!:D

[KeithieW]

I have no idea why I came upon this thread but................whatever happened to John Gault?

A thread worth reading, I feel.

DT??? No....let's not do that one again. :rofl:

[kirk]

whatever happened to John Gault?

You could ask the question about any number of people,
several on this thread alone.

Let's face it, this isn't an easy forum to break into.

In contrast,Yesfans started the same year, has over 6000
members w/ hundreds of regular users.

What are they doing right, or what are we doing wrong?

K

[moses]

I have no idea why I came upon this thread but................whatever happened to John Gault?

I recently had some brief contact with him elsewhere. He is still alive and (presumably) well. Just not frequenting this forum, I suppose.

[KeithieW]

*Bump*

I only do this because I was checking the birthdays and, guess what, HAPPY BIRTHDAY John G. :yougo

What a thread this was......it had everything including an attempt to make it a Kings X thread. =8^O

Dream Theater? Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh!

:rofl:

[Rick and Roll]

[QUOTE=KeithieW;25160What a thread this was......it had everything including an attempt to make it a Kings X thread. =8^O


:rofl:[/QUOTE]

Good I'm playing one of their CD's this week.

[KeithieW]

Good I'm playing one of their CD's this week.
I can't actually tune in because I'm going to a "Kings X is NOT Prog!!!!" seminar on the days you air.

[Rick and Roll]

I can't actually tune in because I'm going to a "Kings X is NOT Prog!!!!" seminar on the days you air.

Matters not, neither is Hawkwind then :dogpile:

Prog stylings or not aside, their praises are sung by many prog musicians. Call it a guilty pleasure then.

Would the keynote speaker at the seminar be Jon Anderson flanked by elves and fairies? (just pulling your chain, you goofy man)....

[Roger -Dot- Lee]

I can't actually tune in because I'm going to a "Kings X is NOT Prog!!!!" seminar on the days you air.

I'm staying the hell outta this one.

Hey Rick, when are ya gonna feature Yngwie Malmsteen?

Roger -Dot- Lee, DUCK!

[VAXman]

I'm staying the hell outta this one.

Hey Rick, when are ya gonna feature Yngwie Malmsteen?

Roger -Dot- Lee, DUCK!
I thought he had. Somebody played Yngwie Malmsteen.

[Rick and Roll]

I'm staying the hell outta this one.

Hey Rick, when are ya gonna feature Yngwie Malmsteen?

Roger -Dot- Lee, DUCK!

That song you liked was "Far Beyond the Sun", which I played twice on the show. It's off of his first, the only one I like (and own). Has the great Jens Johannsen, later of Mastermind fame, on keys. It's a good record, sometimes a bit heavy. That'd be good to play....could do it between Rosfest and Nearfest....:thumbsup: