Modern music's success

[Elric68]

Well if any subject of this kind has already been posted here, please tell me and close it if you want, but there's something I'd like to know.

I'm always astonished, when listening to Aural Moon, with the number or excellent progressive rock artists and the quality of their music. And for this reason I do not understand why progressive music is ignored by radios, television, and why much people don't even know what progressive music is. Why do major prog rock bands like Marillion or IQ remain in the dark side of the stage ? I can understand for minor bands, who do not have enough money to make advertisements or promotions.
Something I don't understand either is the fact that progressive rock does not encounter the same success in different countries. Why did France choose to ignore this music while other countries like UK, USA or even Poland have lots of progressive rock bands and organize much progressive rock festivals ?

[Wojtek]

First of all radios, television is the completely different world, land of big money. Good for masses is not something good itself but something that can be sold in a best way. Therefore:
1. prog tracks are too long (there is not mainstream radio stations that plays >5 min tracks
2. prog tracks have too complex moods for the radio that needs mostly cheerful things

In general I think that in recent years the situation has changed in a positive way. A few years ago without Internet we had to listen and like what we had been served. Now we can search and choose. There is big boom for alternative music (I think prog as well). It doesn't mean that we're going to have prog back on top charts..no.. such times will be never again. But the fact is that more and more people are fed up with mainstream pulp. Internet, online shops allow you to not give a shit about this pulp and listen to the good music.

As for France. Well... some countries are better in football, in some there is tradition of for example great wines. So actually hardly anything does encounter similar success in different countries.

[Rick and Roll]

I'm not so sure it's not just as simple as there are more choices now.

I agree wholeheartedly about commercialism, etc. But too much blame is placed there. It doesn't matter what the product is, if the money is there someone will promote it.

To me, progressive music is more than a hobby. It's intense. And the average person cannot invest the time in that. So they look for the simple, the easy. People are busy. I don't think it's any great mystery.

A band like IQ is not a going concern. They are not a band that stays together. Most of their later work is recorded separately. So to expect sustained success is unrealistic. Marillion does well enough on their own. So did (does) Yes, etc.

Most bands are not making tons of money, even the commercial ones. There are as many commercial bands struggling as prog bands. really, how many really popular bands are there?

One thing that bodes well, is that there is a return back to basics with prog. Prog changed as all music did with bands like REM, etc that completely did away with guitar leads and any long songs. So prog tried to incorporate whatever flavor of the month to compensate. Recently, I've heard a ton of bands that sound like the 70's greats, with an updated sound. It's refreshing.

Finally, I think prog is rid of it's "snob mentality" (rightly or wrongly). I don't think I've heard the word "eclectic" at all in the last two years...that means Prog is infiltrating the airwaves.

Radio will always be the popular, the short-term. I see no reason to worry about Prog not being there.

[Elric68]

I agree with your opinion Woj, about radios, MTV, commercialism and about the improved situation in the last few years. I guess the invention of the compact disc is a problem too: musicians want to fill their discs, so either they put lots of tracks, either they record very long songs, in order to have a 70 minutes disc. That's where the length of prog songs appears, because progressive rock decides to use longer songs, which would not fit on a radio airing. But I noticed that the music that radios are playing is more various than a few years ago, and even sometimes include prog elements, which most of the people I know like. Though, when I want them to listen to prog, they do not want to compare that with the music they can hear on radios. Some of them won't even try and listen to prog.

I believe it's a fashion phenomenon: people like some artists because it's fashion, and so new artists make that kind of music because it's fashion, and so on and so on ...

[progdirjim]

To me, progressive music is more than a hobby. It's intense. And the average person cannot invest the time in that. So they look for the simple, the easy. People are busy. I don't think it's any great mystery.

whoa, Rick with an insight!:LOL: seriously, this is a good point not to be taken lightly.

Why did France choose to ignore this music while other countries like UK, USA or even Poland have lots of progressive rock bands and organize much progressive rock festivals ?

Elric, France has a HUGE prog scene, more than most countries. It's possible that the UK, USA, and Italy have more, but I'm not convinced. Think of Magma, Clearlight, Ange, Shylock, Priam, Xang, Heldon, Pulsar, Jean-Luc Ponty, Taal, Saens, Fugu, Hecenia, Alan Loo, Jean-Michel Jarre, Christian Decamps, Dun, Patrick Forgas, Eclat, Jean Claude Boffo, Edhels, Halloween, Minimum Vital, Tiemko, XII Alfonso, etc. WHEW, that's some of the best prog in the world....

[Elric68]

I agree Jim, but what I was saying was that these bands were totally unknown here in France. Only Ange and Magma are names that a few people know, but Xang, Maldoror, Clearlight, Halloween, are totally forgotten.

I've only met one French person that knows Halloween and Clearlight and he happens to be my father :haha:

[Rick and Roll]

I agree Jim, but what I was saying was that these bands were totally unknown here in France. Only Ange and Magma are names that a few people know, but Xang, Maldoror, Clearlight, Halloween, are totally forgotten.

I've only met one French person that knows Halloween and Clearlight and he happens to be my father :haha:

If he's like my dad, he probably thought you meant "beer light" :rofl:

I was chatting with a moonie from Detroit and i asked him about Discipline. Said he hadn't heard of them. It's everywhere Elric....

[saxamaphone]

Hi all, I am new to the forum but I would say a major hurdle for prog music in more commercial outlets is that many times the music takes some time to appreciate. I find myself having to listen to an album or song several times before really understanding what is happening in the music or appreciating it. I don't think this format works very well in the mainstream where record companies want people instantly hooked onto a song, they don't want people to have to listen several times before going to buy an album. I think progressive music will always do best by word of mouth, and playing a CD you like to friends. Keep in mind that you will always be able to see your favorite group in a small club setting instead of from a distance in a huge arena if prog becomes "popular".

[Elric68]

I agree with you, mister (or miss) new member. Welcome to you !

What I've always found in progressive music is huge emotion. I can feel it the 1st time I listen to a tune, even if I have to listen to it again to find interesting parts, nice solos, ...

With the music I can hear on radios or TV, I never feel that way, and I wonder if people feel the same with those popular songs. If so, then that's nice for them, but if not, why do they keep listening to that ? Because it's fashion ? Because they think they like it ?

[Rick and Roll]

Hi all, I am new to the forum but I would say a major hurdle for prog music in more commercial outlets is that many times the music takes some time to appreciate. I find myself having to listen to an album or song several times before really understanding what is happening in the music or appreciating it. I don't think this format works very well in the mainstream where record companies want people instantly hooked onto a song, they don't want people to have to listen several times before going to buy an album. I think progressive music will always do best by word of mouth, and playing a CD you like to friends. Keep in mind that you will always be able to see your favorite group in a small club setting instead of from a distance in a huge arena if prog becomes "popular".

Excellent points. You're dead on.

The lack of success has long since ceased to be an issue in my mind.

Small club settings are great in MD...especially since "major" acts skip Baltimore (with some exceptions, Who/RHCP being one recently)...where in MD are you?

[colt]

hello i am in france !
Je pense que le prog est une maniere de vivre et non pas un media de divertissement
Nous sommes dans une societe de consommation ou il y a peu de place pour l'inconnu et le prog est une musique complexe qui n'est pas compatible avec la formatisation galopante des modeles musicaux .
Mais c'est mieux ainsi ; le prog prend son temps pour nous seduire mais le plaisir qui en decoule durera longtemps...

[Elric68]

I agree colt, that's right, Progressive Rock is a whole lifestyle, but every music pretends to be one. Punks say that being a Punk is a lifestyle. Metal-heads pretend the same thing about metal music, and wear their own gothic clothes. Progressive Rock state of mind doesn't work the same way, because it doesn't appear in clothes or in political opinions. Punk rock (again, sorry for the example), is a contestating music (is it the right word ? "contestataire" in French) , so it doesn't work as prog music, which does not require special clothings or ideas to be a full-time lifestyle. That's probably why it doesn't work like other musics: we are in a world where people need to identify themselves to something, and to identify themselves compared to other people, and they probably need that kind of things, which prog music cannot provide them, to do that. Maybe that's a possible explanation.

[Yesspaz]

Saxamphone... Where does your name come from? I want to say that's a Simpson's reference for some reason. Help me out please!

[colt]

Bonjour a tous
Elric, ta remarque est juste, je voulais dire par mode de vie autre chose qu'un simple Copier/coller de style ou d'image.
Tu as raison lorsque tu parles de tenue vestimentaire servant a identifier un groupe et je suis parfaitement d'accord.
Pour etre plus clair,je pensais plus en terme d'ouverture d'esprit chez les progueux .
Pour ma part 'et chez les potes) il/nous m'arrive frequement d'ecouter un groupe inconnu pour decouvrir ce petit quelquechose magique et peu importe sa classification mediatique.
Je ne suis pas sur qu'il en soit ainsi en heavy ou chez les punks...
Pas besoin que l'on nous disent C'EST NOUVEAU DONC C'EST BIEN !
C'est avec le coeur que cette musique nous parle , elle est un support magnifique pour le reve, au dela des genres elle est l'essence meme de la musique en construisant une ambiance , un rythme ,um monde,
Colt

[Elric68]

I agree Colt. Just one thing, please explain in English, because I guess our friends here didn't understand your theories and would proabably like to know what you said, especially if it's an interesting theory.

[colt]

I promess Elric but it's very difficult for me to explain all of that
I try..later

[Hawksun]

If you have problems expressing your thoughts in english, you can ask for translation help. Me, Elric and the small french-speaking portion on AM can probably provide help if you ask. I know I'd be glad to help you. I'm sure the others too, but I can't speak for them. :rolleyes2

[Elric68]

Yeah Colt, I will be glad to help you, even if my English is still full of mistakes I guess most people here understand what I say, so if I can be useful I will help you.

[KeithieW]

Elric.......if you ever stop being such a good guy I will lose all faith in human nature.

Hawk, I know you know what I mean so please don't take offence, eh? ;)

[rick_wakeman]

i guess R'n'r first post would explain why people generally won't listen to prog rock. Punk is a "good" reference since those crap tried to destroy the motion with the help of that new wave.

And yes, there are many awesome prog french bands and artists. I'm still refering to this great band called NIL (but they had to give concerts in Portugal... maybe the french is not that open minded to this prog music). there are festivals in France. the one i translated to spanish & english is another valuable example. 2 french musicians from the bands who played during this festival came to become member here in AM. They even posted some corrections to my article.

crap is everywhere on the media. That's for sure. Maybe more in France, but don't worry about the fact that every radio in the world make people believe that Madonna is the only one to listen.

i agree R'nr who agreed Saxamaphone about that we have the great luck to pay less than 0.01% of a Madonna ticket to go to more than hear more than just musicians (as long as Madonna gives concerts) and why not having some chat with the band or the artist.

if Madonna is a star, Jon Anderson is a God.


sorry i had to take a crap to belt on.

[progdirjim]

I can read most of what colt has written, but it'd be pretty hard for me to translate. Having spoken with Elric in person, for instance, I am quite sure his English is much better than my French. I can say that colt's posts were quite sensible - further discussion on the idea of prog being more than a musical choice, but a way of life. Another way to say it (and I'm paraphrasing a LOT) is that your choice of music is in many ways a reflection of your personality. I think it comes back to two things - individual choice (ironically enough an album title from a French artiste), and Rick's comment about prog music being "challenging" (I'm again paraphrasing). I happen to like some punk, the more well written and produced stuff, as well as a lot of non-prog music. But almost all prog has enough CONCERN for music as an art form or statement of ideas to make it resonate with me.

colt: Je ne parle pas francais bien, mais merci et bienvenue. Tu a raison!

[Elric68]

Keithie, I'm not such a good guy, really.

Well, I agree with Rick_W about the cost of a concert ticket. As far as I can remember the most expensive ticket I bought was a Peter Gabriel ticket for 50€, but the concert was in Germany. Marillion comes 2nd with 33€, and then Porcupine Tree, 23€. After that, Wishbone Ash 18€, Jethro Tull + Canned Heat + Manfred Mann 18€ (!!!!), and lots of other bands for very cheap tickets.

I agree about Madonna and Jon Anderson too (though I'm not sure for the Madonna part :hrm: , can she really be a star ?).

Indeed, there are lots of French prog rock bands, just as Nil or Ange, Clearlight, Maldoror, Magma, and the others, but indeed they aren't famous at all in their own country.

The most stunning example to explain my problem is Wishbone Ash. In France (I don't know if it's the same in other countries), June 21st is the music day, so people who play music, bands, set stages on the street and play their music. Only amateurs, of course no professional bands, people play for their pleasure, so there are no tickets, people walk in the streets and listen to what they want freely. I can remember discussing with Wishbone Ash and they said that they played at the music's day in France (I think that was in Lyon but I'm not quite sure).

Starting from this, I'm asking you: why does a band like W.A, who encountered such a success in the USA, have to play on the street for a free concert ? I know they play for their pleasure, because they played this day, they played the day I saw them live with less than 50 people in the audience, and they played again in Colmar when only 30 people came to see them, including Elric of course. But are they rewarded for their passion and their work ? Their music is 10 times worth a Madonna or a Green Day album, but still, they play for free in a feast because they just love music (I never saw a famous band play on the street for free, and I know that a Madonna ticket is around 100€), and that kindness, that love of music is rewarded with 30 poor 18€ tickets each time they play in France ... I would never play in France, but they still do ... I think this is a very sad story. The same for Mostly Autumn, whose members are to find work between the tours because they cannot afford to live normally only with their albums and tickets sold ... Lots of bands have the same problem, but I only heard about M.A so that's my example. Isn't it sad ?

And Jim, you understood what Colt said and translated the main idea perfectly, which proves your French is very good ! I happen to like some other music than progressive rock too, but music made with that concern you're talking about. Music made with the hearts and the minds of the musicians. One of the songs I like most is Camel's "Ice" (Never Let Go version, CD1), because on that version of the song, I can feel Latimer's emotion when he plays, I can feel passion in his playing. And when I play music myself, I want to express that too.

[Rick and Roll]

June 21st is the music day

That's close to Aural moon's birthday..... :)

[podakayne]

a reply by elric to keithieW
"Keithie, I'm not such a good guy, really."

oh yes elric...you really, really are a good guy.

podakayne

p.s. excellent reading on this thread. glad you started it. i've nothing to add as my fellow prog lovers appear to have expressed my opinions well.

[saxamaphone]

I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I got a few questions after my posting so here are my answers:

Rick and Roll: I am in Ellicott City (the eastern most point of it)

Yesspaz: Your are right, my name is a reference to a Simpson's episode where Homer picks up Lisa's saxaphone and sings "Sax-a-ma-phone, sax-a-ma-phone" to the melody of Beethoven's Ninth. I also play the saxaphone so it works well for me. That scene in the Simpsons just got stuck in my head for some reason.

Elric68: I am "mister new member", lol.

Rick and Roll, I agree with your point about how the compexity of the music can be too large of an investment for many people. For many people, the music is just in the background, and they do not want to have to focus on it. They are drawn to simple lyrics and melodies and repetitive rhythms for that reason. I don't think prog music has much to offer them.

Thanks for the welcome!

Josh

[rick_wakeman]

oh yes elric...you really, really are a good guy.

podakayne

p.s. excellent reading on this thread. glad you started it. i've nothing to add as my fellow prog lovers appear to have expressed my opinions well.


hi queen, long time no read. by the way, i'm stopping at Washington before re-taking off to indianapolis on oct 19.

[Rick and Roll]

I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I got a few questions after my posting so here are my answers:

Rick and Roll: I am in Ellicott City (the eastern most point of it)


Thanks for the welcome!

Josh

i was just in EC two weeks ago to see a friend (Cliff from Chaos Code) play at the "Judge's bench" bar....I'm in Parkville :)

[ZoOgY-DoOgY]

Intensity... Depth, passion... I think we are all here for same reason.
Progressive music is more than a style, I agree with all your comments about it. Prog can feed all styles ! And all styles feed prog :D ! In fact, prog is just transcendent in music as it is for us transcendental.
What we can't understand at this point is why the hell some people are not able to open themselves to that intensity, at least just a little. Too long tracks ? Too complex tracks maybe ? There are short and simple prog tracks too...
I personnally think the answer is NOT in music. It is a biologic and psychological phenomena (omg I need to check dictionnary). Humans don't want to make efforts and their efforts are done to make less efforts, or take pleasure, or take more pleasure. There is not only that fact, but we can't list them without entering a very complicate thread and maybe boring (yeah that's it, don't want to write/read posts like that right now, I'm human...). Well, there is one thing important, way more important than we often think : Mediatic Pollution. And particullary, ears pollutions. A simple (and bad) song to promote corn-flakes or grassplot's health product (just ask a french if he knows Fertiligene...) can STAY IN YOUR MIND FOR HOURS SOMETIMES DAYS. Again it is not enough to explain but this thing is a big part of the problem since people are meeting them in compact communities...
And how being more open to others when we are deeply link to communities ? So how being "prog" like that ? Intensity often express himself out of communities... The only choice you have is being a part of a community related to all other communities... Prog one :) (at least in music of course). The problem is that if you want to go out of it and join another, you need to make efforts.
Listening to Madonna ask no effort (gives no pleasure and for me gives also nausea but that's not the point). Of course for some people it is easier. Elric has no problem, his father had already make an effort ;)

[Elric68]

Yeah, but I made the effort myself, my dad only tried helping me when making me listen to Pendragon, but he did the same with my sis' and brother, and my sister listens to Madonna, Muse, Green Day, Indochine, and my brother likes the same music as me just because I'm his big brother. And he finds prog boring. He only likes the heavy part of what I like myself.

After my dad made me discover Marillion, Hawkwind and Pendragon, I tried myself to discover some other bands, and to listen, buy, experiment, (play too) music. Because prog is a music that one experiments. And finally I am the one who helps him discover things now. I lend him CD's, and yesterday he borrowed my Subterranea (IQ) and my Visitor (Arena).

[ZoOgY-DoOgY]

That's exactly what i'm talking about :) The fact is you were not alone to discover. You could probably discover prog yourself alone, yes, of course, many people do it too. But it is "easier" with a father/a mother/a brother/a friend. Easier with a community, easier with a beer...

[Elric68]

Yup, I agree on this. The experimentation has to be done alone first, but someone has to introduce you to the prog world before, to advise you, to tell you what are the gems and what are the boring albums, and then you can experiment by yourself.