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View Full Version : A GREAT debate! What changed music?


Yesspaz
03-26-2003, 09:30 AM
What do you think changed music the most in the 20th Century? My vote was for set drumming. In days before jazz, percussion was split up between many people playing a composer's score. After set drumming, people began to be the whole rhythm sections themselves, thus facilitating improvisation and personality. It paved the way for jazz, rock, etc. Set drumming changed music forever, even before electrification and more prominently than electrification. For instance, there are many, many all acoustic groups out there, but they have a set drummer. Can't do music today without set drums, unless you're an orchestra.

JR42
03-26-2003, 10:39 AM
My vote is for Radio; this made an enormous impact on the Worlds cultural development throughout the twentieth century. I think it is very difficult for us now to imagine what it would be like not to have radio, and how much it has changed things!

Radio has contributed massivly to a cross-fertilisation of musical forms and an expolosion of creativity. Not forgetting the access it gives to a world-wide market; resultant revenues have clearly fed musical development (although it could also be argued that the 'big bucks' are now stifling creativity!).

ivan_2068
03-26-2003, 12:57 PM
Great thread, I'm new in this forum but old in some others, and never saw a similar thread before.

I can't vote for just one option, because I believe some of the facts mentioned are really important for the change of music as we know it, I'll mention some:

Set drumming: Of course the developement of the drums is basic for the big change, percussion passed to be an important part of the music instead of simply an auxiliar instrument, one man alone can handle the rythm instead of needing many percussionists that very often were not born to play together.

Electrification: Jazz and Rock couldn't develope without electrification, not to talk about Prog' Rock with Mellotron, Hammond, Organs, etc.

The switch from musician as performer of someone else's work, to musician as composer: Basic!!!! the performer can express his own feelings and inspiration, also knows what music is perfect for his style and skills. When playing other composer's music you can't transmit what the composer wanted to tell the audience.

Live Touring: I believe you don't fully understand a band until you are in front of them, people can identify better with their favourite musician when part of the audience. Gabriel Genesis shows told the audience more of the story and songs than a simple album (extrange thing to admit when I heve never seen them alive except on bootlegs).
Concerts are also important to realize the exact valuse of a musician or band, because with today's tecnology you can do magic in a recording srudio, but the audience is a monster of 1000 heads ready to find the smallest mistake and lapidate you or to love you instantly.

Iván

PS: Please excuse me for my poor english, it's only my second language.

KeithieW
03-27-2003, 02:05 AM
I'd go for All of the above plus!

The main thing that has changed music the MOST in the 20th Century (or ANY century come to that) is the Human Desire for experimentation. Examples of this being:

Beethoven writing Symphonies twice the length of the norm; shocking at the time.

The move away from writing purely Tonal music by the likes of Webern, Schoenburg and Berg.

The coming of the minimalist movement and the work of composers like Philip Glass, Steve Reich and John Adams. The most striking example has to be John Cage's work culminating in the purely silent 4' 33''..........I actually have a CD of a performance of this.

Miles Davis developing the idea of "Fusion" from which came the inspiration for a lot of bands that we have on AM.

And just to get a bit of British interest here the desire to write extended theme works by the likes of The Moody Blues, Yes and Jethro Tull were an important part of the development of Prog.

Yesspaz, your list is extensive and extemely valid but without the Human Spirit.........who knows what we'd be listening to.

Thank God for Human Spirit!

As an afterthought.

The use of narcotics, especially L.S.D. caused a massive change in music. The Beatles, Pink Floyd and Hawkwind wouldn't have written some of their greatest work if it hadn't been for the odd trip or two.

Yesspaz
03-27-2003, 10:34 AM
Ah, Narcotics. I believe that that would fall under "Other."

Yesspaz
04-11-2003, 11:08 AM
Everyone has to vote!



...please...:(

HORDE
04-22-2003, 02:26 PM
Drug Experimentation..lol The record industries perception of the artist as just a bottom line. I think that has stifled the creativity of an artist. That and way too many prefabricated artists like Britney Spears, Destinys Child, Boys to Men...etc. The idea that a person can create a cookie cutter band that makes millions has definitley hurt the music industry.

Maybe I am out of touch but I really hate alot of the new artists out there. What happened to musicians that can actually play an instrument and singers that can sing and songs that last longer than 3 minutes. Hopefully music will go full circle and get back to bands that have creativity and imagination again.

Yesspaz
04-23-2003, 04:36 PM
Hey HORDE, I agree with you about radio being horrible.
Hopefully music will go full circle and get back to bands that have creativity and imagination again.
Well, here's a place for you to start. Check out these bands:

Tarentel, Tortoise, Sixpence None the Richer, Stavesacre, King Black Acid, Turing Machine, Godspeed You Black Emperor!, Fontanelle, Billy Mahonie, Don Caballero, and Sigur Ros. All these bands are working today and are worth checking out.

HORDE
04-24-2003, 01:23 PM
Yesspaz I love your signature, "Prog isn't dead, it just smells like jazz."

How true it is.

Yesspaz
04-25-2003, 09:40 AM
thanks, it's a rip on Zap's "Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" quote.

black max
04-25-2003, 11:15 AM
I'll vote for computers/programming, not because I think it's a definitive "right" answer, but because it's worth mentioning. Yea zillions of people have been able to make music without learning complex instrumentation through the medium of computers; professional musicians have been able to play with different sounds and instruments that they don't know how to play per se through electronics.

Not that this is always a good thing by any means, but then, nothing is.

And speaking of "other," I was listening to some old Hawkwind this morning while driving to work, and tranced out so hard I almost wrecked the car. The drugs those cats took 30 years ago still have an effect....!

KeithieW
04-25-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by black max
And speaking of "other," I was listening to some old Hawkwind this morning while driving to work, and tranced out so hard I almost wrecked the car. The drugs those cats took 30 years ago still have an effect....!

Too right!!

I was at a Hawkwind gig at Stone(d)henge some years back and I still get flashbacks to when they played 'Levitation' and I found myself dancing naked round the stones.

Not a pretty sight I'm reliably informed.

gilbertopb
05-06-2003, 10:23 PM
I vote for "others". I think we have more freedom to try and to do really diferent things without being hidden in the cellar, and not being burned by inquisition.

jm0313
06-03-2003, 08:22 AM
I call the present popular music "McDonald's" music. Just keep recording the same safe stuff over& over, force market the personalities to the masses for easy access and VOILA! mega-bucks for the record companies.

Methem
08-26-2006, 04:25 AM
(An old thread that might be interesting to some.)

Rick and Roll
08-26-2006, 06:02 AM
(An old thread that might be interesting to some.)

Thanks for resurrecting some old threads Methem. I really like the other one ("roots"). However, I'm not enamored with this one. The question is too broad, and it assumes you're talking about specific genres.

Music evolves, retreats, always changes yet remains set in certain constants.

It's an impossible question as stated.

VAXman
08-26-2006, 08:30 AM
I voted "other". The transistor as employed in the transistor radio changed they way people heard music. They were cheap and portable. No longer did people have to sit around in the parlor listening to the old radio behemouth in the corner. It also helped to segregate the listening audience. The kids no longer had to listen to what mom and dad programmed on the dial. It also enabled the advent of the portable music device too. Once this happened, the radio stations could tailor their playlists to audience demographics and thus, it enabled audiences to experience a broader and more diversified world of music. Take a look at when the modern music industry exploded on the scene... just about the same time as the transistor radio.

FWIW, the transistor is probably, if not, the most inportant invention of the 20th century too... our lives have been forever altered by it.

roger
08-26-2006, 08:34 AM
good thought, Vax.

now if we can only get rid of Spaz's signature....

kevishev
08-26-2006, 11:18 AM
I have to take issue with the question in general. So I voted "Other".

Does it matter if the music is made by pounding stick on a rock or a dried animal skin that had been stretched over a hollow tree stump by one or a cave full of mudmen? Does it matter that the same sounds can be made today by one bony finger touching an ivory key hooked-up to all kinds of electronic magic? It's still music is it not?

What has changed is the way "music", in whatever form or genre you want to talk about, is made available to the masses. The most elemental vehicle to this end would undoubtedly have to be the reproduction of music by way of recordings. The mass reproduction and distribution of recordings by the record companies is by far the most influential aspect of this discussion. The advent of radio made the music available to the broad and varied tastes of the consumer. The rest, as they say, is history.

I would vote for radio and recording technology as the most important inventions that have affected the music we hear today.

Yesspaz
08-26-2006, 01:41 PM
now if we can only get rid of Spaz's signature....You ever had the privilege of having a Surge? I thought not or you'd appreciate the banner!:cool:

Rick and Roll
08-26-2006, 03:04 PM
You ever had the privilege of having a Surge? I thought not or you'd appreciate the banner!:cool:

yes, it's called pouring sugar down your throat......:vaxman:

Rick and Roll
08-26-2006, 03:05 PM
I have to take issue with the question in general. So I voted "Other".

Does it matter if the music is made by pounding stick on a rock or a dried animal skin that had been stretched over a hollow tree stump by one or a cave full of mudmen? Does it matter that the same sounds can be made today by one bony finger touching an ivory key hooked-up to all kinds of electronic magic? It's still music is it not?

What has changed is the way "music", in whatever form or genre you want to talk about, is made available to the masses. The most elemental vehicle to this end would undoubtedly have to be the reproduction of music by way of recordings. The mass reproduction and distribution of recordings by the record companies is by far the most influential aspect of this discussion. The advent of radio made the music available to the broad and varied tastes of the consumer. The rest, as they say, is history.

I would vote for radio and recording technology as the most important inventions that have affected the music we hear today.

Thank you Kev....You echoed my thoughts but said it in a way that I meant -

Well done..

sharcnorris
08-26-2006, 10:23 PM
(An old thread that might be interesting to some.)

doh !!

progdirjim
08-27-2006, 02:11 AM
You ever had the privilege of having a Surge? I thought not or you'd appreciate the banner!:cool:

If you want to save Surge buy more of it. I feel like I have to enforce the "no advertising" rule here...

VAXman
08-27-2006, 06:46 AM
You ever had the privilege of having a Surge? I thought not or you'd appreciate the banner!:cool:
Sheesh! It's a soft drink and wasn't that popular so it's being discontinued. I, for one, had never even heard of it until you started your banner campaign.

Rick and Roll
08-27-2006, 08:14 AM
Sheesh! It's a soft drink and wasn't that popular so it's being discontinued. I, for one, had never even heard of it until you started your banner campaign.

That's a good thing. Diabetics and Surge is like Hezbollah and Israel....

VAXman
08-27-2006, 08:40 AM
That's a good thing. Diabetics and Surge is like Hezbollah and Israel....
Don't know anything about it. What is it, liquid Sugar-PLUS?

roger
08-27-2006, 09:44 AM
I feel like I have to enforce the "no advertising" rule here...


yes, please. since us asking him hasn't seemed to work. :grump:

Rick and Roll
08-27-2006, 02:00 PM
Don't know anything about it. What is it, liquid Sugar-PLUS?

From the save Surge site:

http://www.savesurge.org/surge/about_faqs_caffeine.shtml

Good to see Jolt second on the list. That was big when I was in college. I'm wondering what this "Afri-Cola" is at the top of list. Actually, I'm wondering why I'm even researching this!

When I decided to lose weight two years ago, I cut out coffee. Although I love the taste, I pride myself in getting up early and getting through the day without it. Of course I am an irritable bastard. A fair tradeoff, maybe.

KeithieW
08-27-2006, 02:24 PM
Give me some of that Afri-Cola NOW!!!!

Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine. Need my caffeine!!!!!!

btw....I didn't realise that sodas changed music to SUCH a degree....:hrm:

VAXman
08-27-2006, 03:08 PM
From the save Surge site:

http://www.savesurge.org/surge/about_faqs_caffeine.shtml

Good to see Jolt second on the list. That was big when I was in college. I'm wondering what this "Afri-Cola" is at the top of list. Actually, I'm wondering why I'm even researching this!

When I decided to lose weight two years ago, I cut out coffee. Although I love the taste, I pride myself in getting up early and getting through the day without it.
I don't understand the caffeine/coffee and diet connection. Would it wake you up and you'd eat more?


Of course I am an irritable bastard. A fair tradeoff, maybe.
Oh! I thought that was just your nature demeanor. :D

mossy
08-27-2006, 03:42 PM
I don't understand the caffeine/coffee and diet connection. Would it wake you up and you'd eat more?


http://www.teeccino.com/weightloss.aspx

lotus
08-27-2006, 03:57 PM
I feel like I have to enforce the "no advertising" rule here...

I guess you should, Jim, as this thread e.g. is changing to a nutrition and beverage thread.

Rick and Roll
08-27-2006, 05:44 PM
I guess you should, Jim, as this thread e.g. is changing to a nutrition and beverage thread.

So that means you can sell more product Lotus!:rofl:

Ok, let's segue...

beverages changed music!

progdirjim
08-28-2006, 12:46 AM
Okay Spaz, "I love you man" and all that, but lose the surge banner now. (can't seem to find a BIG GRIN smiley)

teermin8r
08-28-2006, 06:20 AM
I voted 'Other' Drugs AND Technology is the reason. :D

mailotron
08-28-2006, 02:31 PM
.. concerning progrock it is with no doubt the average age of the lieteners :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

jtmckinley
08-28-2006, 05:00 PM
I'll vote for computers/programming, not because I think it's a definitive "right" answer, but because it's worth mentioning. Yea zillions of people have been able to make music without learning complex instrumentation through the medium of computers; professional musicians have been able to play with different sounds and instruments that they don't know how to play per se through electronics.

Not that this is always a good thing by any means, but then, nothing is.


I have to agree with black max, I almost voted for electrification, but when I started thinking about it, it seemed that computers/software (C/S from here on) really has made the most change in music in the 20th (and now 21st) century. I'm including ICs, analog signal processing, DSP, sampling, waveform editing, MIDI, synthesis, looping, instrument/amp/room simulation etc. all under C/S. Electrification allowed people to be heard by bigger audiences, and amplification allowed for some interesting tonal changes like distortion, but the instruments still sounded pretty similar and you still needed somebody to play the parts. It's arguable whether one should include old analog circuits under C/S but I do since after all the very first computers were analog and modern signal processing almost always has some software running somewhere, so I'm seperating simple amplification from the rest and calling that electrification since for many years that was pretty much all there was.

C/S has allowed the creation of music/sounds that simply couldn't be produced previously. In addition C/S allows one to write music that may be unplayable by humans (some of FZ's polyrhythmic music borders on this). C/S has also allowed composers to hear music they wrote without having to hire people to play it. I'm not saying that not hiring musicians is a good thing, but it does let one work things out on one's own before spending a lot of money to pay people to play it, especially in the case of orchestral music (FZ is again a good example of this and it is likely why he started using the synclavier so much). Also as black max mentioned it allows people who can't even play an instrument to make music, sometimes even with interesting results. And then there is all the recording/mixing/mastering stuff that can be done, well you get the idea...

Yesspaz
08-28-2006, 05:06 PM
:drdot: Ok ok ok ok ok, I'll lose the Surge banner! :drdot:

I'm not actually trying to save Surge single-handedly or anything. And for the record I bought a ton of that stuff back in the day. It's been discontinued for about 5 years and only recently did I discover that there was a whole web campaign trying to bring it back. I didn't realize ya'll would be so, uh, passionate against the banner. Oh well. I really don't care, so it's not a big deal. :angel:

PS, I didn't lose it earlier 'cause it's been a while since I was last on the forums. And no I won't change something just because someone asks me to (you can't please all the people...). I have no problem changing something that the station owner asks. Totally different.

Gabriel's Angel
09-19-2006, 08:55 PM
The Beatles