Classical Music on Aural Moon

[La Mano Gaucha]

I've been listening to Aural Moon and ocassionally requesting items from time to time for about four or five months. It's a terrific site and the lists are generally great. Kudos to the administrators!

Regarding classical music, I came across a tiny selection by two composers, namely Mozart and Beethoven. The Mozart was most, perhaps all of his Symphony No. 40, while the Beethoven was the scherzo and finale of the 9th Symphony, if I remember correctly. Although these pieces are very important to the history of music, especially the LvB 9th, they demonstrate little connection toward Progressive Rock, in my opinion.

I feel that certain well-known twentieth century works are much more closely related to Prog Rock, generally speaking.

For example, the King Crimson of the Larks' and Starless period would be practically unthinkable without the quite direct influence of Stravinsky. (I don't think I saw any Stravinsky on the lists, but if I overlooked it, please let me know.) Especially important are obvious pieces like The Rite of Spring, from 1911-13. Its agressive use of rather highly dissonant and rhythmically dislocated ostinati were probably very much on Fripp's mind while composing Larks' Part II and Fracture. This goes hand in hand with a certain Englishness to the KC sound that is perhaps related to the darker or more aggressive works of Holst (like Mars and Saturn, from The Planets, Op. 32), or of Vaughan-Williams (Fourth Symphony). The atonality of guitar lines like the big solo on Larks' Part I should be put into perspective by offering some standard examples of atonality in a classical context, especially early atonality. Some short works, or movements of works, by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern should be represented for comparison. That is works from around 1909 to 1920... Actually, parts of Berg's Violin Concerto, from around 1935, would be great examples of the atonality of some of Fripp's guitar solos. Now, the Berg lines are much more lyrical, but if one adds the metronomic quality present in some of the rhythmic forms of the less frivolous neo-classical composers of the 20s and 30s, like Hindemith, to the atonality of Berg, one has a rough blueprint for some of Fripp's aesthetic tendencies.

As far as older work is concerned, the keyboard sonatas by Domenico Scarlatti, some of the simpler two and three-part invention by J.S. Bach, and some of the later choral writing of Handel are probably not too far removed from some of the work by Wakeman, particularly some portions of Six Wives, Journey and King Arthur. This is coupled with a barely assimilated sense of the "nobilmente" of Elgar (Enigma Variations) and the accessibility (but lack of vulgarity, fortunately) of someone like Grieg (Peer Gynt, from which Wakeman took, almost without any change, in certain portions of Journey).

ELP is another obvious example, and the finale of the Ginastera Piano Concerto No. 1 should be on AM's list, this in order to compare the original and the ELP rendering. (The Ginastera is from the early 60s -- he was a fairly conservative composer, but not too much so, especially in his later years.) I think it would be very interesting to serious listeners. The same applies to other things ELP reconstructed, such as Copland and Prokofiev (The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits, which is in reality a rendering of the second movement of that composer's Scythian Suite, and which is far more aggressive and brutal in its original form, even if from 1914). Emerson's own Piano Concerto No. 1 shows plenty of influence from some composers. His concerto does not even come close to the concertos by these composers, but at least he showed an awareness of them; the third movement of his concerto shows obvious debt to Prokofiev (but alas, not nearly as bold or as formally disciplined yet inventive). Bartok in a gentle mood too...

For the more adventurous listener, Varese's Ameriques, Arcana and Integrales are essential, and any listener of the more complex types of Prog Rock should listen to these.

My point is, Mozart and Beethoven are great but a little illogical on the list. If the administrators would like, I could make particular recomendations of pieces and recordings. Just ten or twenty pieces would make a huge difference, and not only serve a great educational purpose which would share a perspective on one of the most important of the myriad origins of Prog Rock, but also deliver a good deal of enjoyment as well. It would only be a purchase of a few CDs, probably ten or fifteen... Please let me know if you would be interested -- I would be glad to contribute my pinch of salt.

[Avian]

It's not part of some master plan. It's just the classical music pieces we had on hand immediately. If you search the messages back awhile, you can find all the comments and suggestions about this discussion when it came up before.

Avian

[La Mano Gaucha]

I found the thread you were telling me about. Most of the composers mentioned on that thread make sense, but it's all too vague. There are no concrete suggestions on what to consider for addition, which would make things very hard for you at the store, especially so if you're not really familiar with the ouvre of each of those composers. Maybe you are -- I don't know -- so if that's the case, I'm sorry to presume.

Anyhow, the point is, don't you think that just a dozen or so major, standard works of the 20th century would make things even better? There're probably a bunch of people who would enjoy listening to ELP versions and original versions on the same session, just to compare them, for example. I think many would find them to be a cool and important addition to the roster. Besides, some of these 20th century pieces I had mentioned influenced Prog Rock profoundly and they are simply very, very great music; certain of these works, some of the finest music ever written, bar none. (In fact, nearly all of the works ELP dealt with are not of the first order.)

Again, I want to say that your site is phenomenal, so please don't construe my "criticism" as negative. Far from it... It's just a thought.

cheers,

LMG

PS: Have you heard of the Art Bears? They were great, especially the third album. "The World As It Is Today".

[zvinki]

I agree with La Mano. I, as a music lover and prog fan, thoroughly enjoy Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and some of Holst's Planets. I am not familiar with the other pieces that he mentioned but would be very interested in hearing them. Maybe La Mano could host a series of shows demonstrating classical music's influence on prog. It seems to me that some of Rush's pieces also show an influence from the Romantic period.

[black max]

>>>(In fact, nearly all of the works ELP dealt with are not of the first order.)

Not always (though I'm very fond of Pictures at an Exhibition in its orchestrated form), but they translate well to a rock medium. And don't forget Renaissance's fondness for Rachmaninoff and Rimsky-Korsakov.

>>>Maybe La Mano could host a series of shows demonstrating classical music's influence on prog.

I'd listen.

Some of the music by Ligeti as used in the 2001 film by Kubrick would be an excellent addition as well.

[progdirjim]

Well, I'll take you up on the offer to make a list.

I can't promise that we'll add everything on it, but I'll consider everything. We're trying to be selective on classical, as we've had mixed reactions to it. As much as I like Beethoven's ninth, I'm considering removing it, in fact.

Send me an e-mail....

[Avian]

Welcome back, Jim!

Avian

[Yesspaz]

You knew it was coming...

Yes was highly influenced by Stravinsky and totally lifted Holst's Jupiter for "The Prophet." King Crimson was influenced by Stravinsky and totally lifted Holst's Mars for "The Devil's Triangle."

However, to repeat an old argument, if we're talking about adding classical music, however "weird," to a rock station because of it's influential status (not to mention that it's "art"), then we should also add some of the weirder modern jazz like Charles Mingus and Modeski, Martin, & Wood - as well as some of the big influential jazz acts. It is well known that Steve Howe was hugely influenced by Django Rheinhardt and Wes Montgomery. If the classical is being considered based on it's influence on prog rock, then we also have to look at Roy Samek, Chet Atkins, and any folky stuff that influenced the likes of Steve Howe and Genesis, or the blues men that influenced Floyd.

Of couse this is and absurdist-styled argument, but you get my point. I'm two-cents poorer again...:p

[KeithieW]

No more Classical Music on AM.

Man, it really ain't the place for it!!!!

I love it, but Floyd's "Echoes" followed by Mozart 40 doesn't work in my head.

Sorry!!!

[JRV]

LMG is right. Copland's Appalachian Spring is a personal fave. Not for anything related to prog...just on its own.

Holst's Planets have come up several times in this thread. That tells me you oughta at least add Tomita's version to the playlist!

[Extended Play]

If anything, let's get some music for the Ondes Martenot! Or maybe Clara Rockmore on the Theremin. Messiaen's Fete Des Belles Eaux is for a sextet of Martenot. Wow, what an amazing piece, but damned hard to find!

Although, I do agree with KW that this is diluting the pool. one or two "out there" pieces would be good, but too many pieces that we already have ELP covering ad infinitum would start to get old pretty quickly.

Heck, why not just start Aural Moon Classical . . .

[the_original_ib]

Hello,

I think it would be cool to have a show for classical music and jazz that might be of interest to proggers, but I would recommend it be a dedicated show rather than put in the general mix. It's kind of like how some people won't mind tuning in to my show to listen to obscure Scandinavian music, but others won't have any interest in it... by having a predictable time where such music is highlighted people can plan accordingly.

Regards,
Sean

[JRV]

I think there's little danger of classical representing more than a tiny fraction of the music that actually gets played at AM, regardless of how much or how little is in the library.

So it's no different than anything else that gets played here. Either you like it or you don't. If you do, cool, and if you don't, it'll be over soon. It's all music. Moreover, even if you don't like it, if you have an open mind and know how to listen, you're liable to find something of interest somewhere in it. I'm not a classical kinda guy myself, though I've picked up a few classical albums along the way. Ditto jazz. But I think diversity makes for a much better radio experience, esp. with prog. If homogeneity is your thing, check out your "local" Clear Channel stations.

To me, it boils down to priorities and economics. Given that AM's mission is prog and its funds are limited, most of it needs to go into prog. But that doesn't preclude supplementing it with one or two well-chosen selections from other genres in each album upload.

Idea: Perhaps programming preferences could be collected from subscribers when a donation is made, and weighted at a dollar a vote, or something along those lines. Not sure I'd go along with that if it was "my" station, but perhaps Avian & ProgDirJim are more democratic than I am.

[La Mano Gaucha]

I haven't checked AM in a little while, thus my delay in responding.

ProgDirJim:

I will send you an e-mail in a few days re. classical suggestions for AM. I have to think carefully about what repertory to place on the list I would be sending you because the pieces need to be closely related to Prog Rock, important to the history of western music, of the highest quality, and last but not least, not too many in quantity (funds are probably not unlimited and this is after all a Prog Rock station). I also need to select the finest recordings/interpretations of these, so I will need a little bit of time. I appreciate your possitive response very much.

As a side note, I have to agree about the Beethoven 9th -- it's an awesome work, but it really doesn't fit in well with the rest of the repertoire of AM, so it does make sense to remove it from the list.

Everyone else:

Thanx for the responses to my original post. I didn't think that there would be more than three or four, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

Alas, some of you would like to have classical music completely out of AM... I think that that would be limiting, and in the scheme of things, a bit of a mistake. After all, Prog Rock would be unthinkable without that particualr influence. Remember, we're only talking here about the addition of one or two dozen crucial works, not making AM into a classical station. If one were to calculate percentages, the classical pieces I would suggest via e-mail to Jim would almost certainly amount to well below 1% of the total repertory available at AM, even if some of those pieces are of somewhat considerable length. AMs Prog repertory is *massive*. Yes, a few Prog things could still be added here and there, but damn, what a great selection!

Someone mentioned Ligeti in a previous post. One or two works from Ligeti's early maturity would make perfect sense too, so I'm glad that this composer was mentioned. "Atmospheres" and "Lontano", both for large orchestra sans percussion, are dark and highly complex "forerunners" of things like Brian Eno's "On Land", especially the more mysterious and shadowy tracks of side one. Now technically speaking, they are highly different works of art, and their formal processes completely at odds with each other, but the end result is quite similar, generally speaking -- a musical picture (and a very still one) of a very particular and distinct mood. Those two Ligeti pieces are obviously much more developmental and ambitious, but the *surface* similarity is sometimes clear. I think that Eno is much closer to certain minimalist composers from the late sixties and early seventies, such as LaMonte Young, Charlemagne Palestine and early Reich, but the "atmosphereness" of Eno is quite related to the Ligeti of that period. Come to think of it, the third of Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16 (Colors: Summer Morning by a Lake, Op. 16, No. 3) is very close indeed to the more "inward" pieces of Eno.

Anyhow, the whole thing seems like an interesting possibility for AM, so I'll be sending that e-mail soon. Perhaps some relevant jewels can be added to the request list...

Also, I would love to host a show, but even if the folks that run AM invited me to do so, I wouldn't be able to do it. I'm currently living in China and the vast majority of my recordings are on the other side of the world! Thanx for the vote of confidence though!

cheers,

LMG

[black max]

I think the idea of a dedicated show is very good. I wouldn't put too much into the general library. It probably won't get to the point of inundation (as with the Italian prog material that seems to be all I hear some days...okay, okay, it's just an opinion), but a single 2-3 hour show a week would be wonderful.

Some rock/prog band did a version of Holst's Mars. Was it ELO? ELO did do a version of Grieg's In the Hall of the Mountain King.

[La Mano Gaucha]

The "Mars" you're talking about is by KC and the Sunshine Band. Just kidding... King Crimson. In fact, this is not really a version of Holst's "Mars" per se. In reality, the rendering by KC ("The Devil's Triangle" or "Mars", depending on what version you would be listening to) is an extended (and rather monotonous) fantasy upon the principal melodic theme and principal 5/4 rhythmic signature of the original piece. There is little development in the KC version, and the group was not aiming at truly transcribing the actual piece. The KC version is in essence an extended, monolithic crescendo, rather than a clearly defined ABA' form with introduction and coda. Like I said above, it's only a fantasy on some thematic elements from the original. As a side note, notice that the tempo is also radically slowed down in the KC. The harmonies and progressions are also quite different. It's effective, to a certain degree, but not at all a true "version" of the original. (However, sometimes KC did employ the original coda, more or less.)

The same could apply to ELP in their classical manner, but to a lesser degree -- this band tended to stick closer to the originals, sometimes blatantly, sometimes very subtly. An unusual, interesting (but quite underrated) track by ELP is "Abaddon's Bolero", from "Trilogy". The structural and gestural idea of this track derives directly and consciously from Ravel's "Bolero", but the band didn't use a single quotation from the Ravel, whether melodic, harmonic or rhythmic. In this particular instance, the band has fully assimilated a warhorse and created a new work, rather than a pastiche. That's why I have always admired this ELP track, even if it's not one of their best.

LMG

[black max]

I'm familiar with The Devil's Triangle, though it was years before I realized its origins in Holst's Mars. Someone else did a much closer rendition of it. Sly and the Family Stone, maybe? Maybe the Backstreet Boys, with Robert Fripp on guitar.... There's a thought that will freeze your blood.

I'm very fond of Abbadon's Bolero. Glad you mentioned it.

[progdirjim]

Emerson, Lake and Powell did a song called "Mars, Bringer of War" which I BELIEVE is derived from Holst's. I'm not sure, and I don't have my CD with me to check.

I've always been fond of Abaddon's Bolero as well - I love the gradual build-up of intensity....

[Rick and Roll]

yes it's from the Emerson Lake and Powell record - just seems like a vehicle for Cozy Powell to get off, if you ask me...

This is starting to sound like the other threads. :(

I do like the idea of special shows dedicated to certain variants. Some of the stuff Extended Play does stretch the limits, but it's his show, you know.

You put a Chet Atkins song on Aural Moon and I will lose the equivalent of three entire meals on my computer.

[KeithieW]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
You put a Chet Atkins song on Aural Moon and I will lose the equivalent of three entire meals on my computer.

I agree with you there Rick..........

However, a little bit of Doris Day magic wouldn't go amiss.

"Once I had a secret loooooooove.............................."

[ivan_2068]

Being an ELP fan (among many other prog' bands), I would love to listen something from their main influence, like the late Romantic/early Modern Russian periods, which is in fact my favourite music after Prog'.

Iván

[KeithieW]

Originally posted by ivan_2068
Being an ELP fan (among many other prog' bands), I would love to listen something from their main influence, like the late Romantic/early Modern Russian periods, which is in fact my favourite music after Prog'.

Iván

Then try and check out Mussorgsky's original Piano Version of Pictures at an Exhibition and follow that with Ravel's orchestrated version of the same. you can see where Emerson was coming from (and going to).

[La Mano Gaucha]

Jim and Rick and Roll are correct. There is also a much closer version of "Mars" by ELP (Powell lineup). I can barely remember that particular version, as I was never a fan of that reincarnation of the group, but I do recall that it was closer to the original Holst. I suppose that I can play it here on AM by clicking on it and then report about my findings. More later...

The Ravel orchestration of "Pictures at an Exhibition" is only one of many other orchestrations of that piece. The Ravel is indeed the most famous version, but in fact it is perhaps the least Russian-sounding version of them all. For a true Russian-sounding version of it, try the Sergei Gorchikov orchestration, made in the 50s, I think, but not recorded until relatively recently. That version is very Mussorgskian, sounding very much like the kind of orchestration the composer provided for the original, true versions of "A Night on Bald Mountain" and "Boris Godunov" (the versions more comonly heard are by his friend Rimsky-Korsakov, and these are quite gentle in comparison with Mussorgsky's original orchestrations). Leo Funtek's version, predating the Ravel, is also quite outstanding. Other more or less well-known orchestrations of "Pictures" are by Leopold Stokowsky (he deleted certain movements of the suite, alas, and coloristically speaking, it's quite garish), Vladimir Ashkenazy (the famous pianist) and Walter Goehr. There are several other orchestrations available. Even though many of these are quite nice, especially the Ravel, Gorchikov, Funtek, and to a certain degree, Ashkenazy, the original piano version is still supreme.

ELP's version departs radically, and sometimes completely, from the original text in many places. That's OK because ELP is a rock band after all. I'm not so sure if Emerson really had Ravel in mind when he was "orchestrating" his/their own version. My view is that what ELP had in mind was to simply transcribe several portions of the piece their own way, rather than follow the example of Ravel's orchestral palette (or to slavishly follow the original text in its entirety). Probably the colors we hear on the ELP version were more or less dictated by the limitations of that time's technology available to rock bands. When I listen to ELP doing "Pictures", I hear their "orchestration", no one else's. It is certain that ELP knew the Ravel orchestration well, but I still hear ELP, above all else. That's probably what made them so original at the time -- take a warhorse and make it your own (though in this case, less so than in "Abaddon's Bolero").

[Rick and Roll]

Pictures At An Exhibition! (as Lake would say).

In college, I got 1 of 6 on the final exam of a music course I took. The 1 was "Pictures". I chased the professor down and re-took the final, for a whopping C grade. For selfish reasons, that's why I like that record.

[La Mano Gaucha]

I think that I got the ELP "Pictures" as a trade I made on the school bus with a pretty girl back in '80 or '81. If I remember correctly, I traded a pristine middle period Bee Gees record for a rather scratchy Cotillion copy of the ELP. I still have that album in my collection. I was about thirteen and she was a year or two older.

For the record, my very first albums were Led Zeppelin "III" and ELP's "Trilogy", both given to me by my dad when I was seven. He was getting heavily into Disco at the time and no longer had any use for those two records. He gave me a plastic record player to go along with them. I remember we bought the player at a K-Mart and the thing was mostly white. I was absolutely stoked. The player eventually perished on a trip to school -- I used to take it to art class because the teacher would let me play my Kiss records when we were drawing or playing with plastisine. The player fell off the roof of the van that would take us to school and was run over by the car behind us... That was the only time I ever cried while I was a schoolboy. After that, my grandpa gave me his 60s Lafayette amp and a Panasonic turntable with some boomy-sounding speakers. That was the stereo I first used to play ELP's "Pictures".

[ivan_2068]

Then try and check out Mussorgsky's original Piano Version of Pictures at an Exhibition and follow that with Ravel's orchestrated version of the same. you can see where Emerson was coming from (and going to)

Good info Keith, but don't forget you can find Modern Classical influence in many other ELP songs like:

1.- The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits: Scytian Suite by Prokofiev.
2.- Nutrocker: Fowley's song Based in Nut Cracker Suite
3.- Romeo and Juliet: Prokofiev
4.- Tocatta: Ginastera (Argentina Modern Classical composer)
5.- Knife Edge: Based on Sinfonietta by Janacek (Czech Modern composer)
6.- The Barbarian: Inspired in Bela Bartok's "Allegro Barbaro"
7.- Creole Dance: Ginastera again.

Even Piano Concerto N° 1 has a clear Modern Classical sound.

It's interesting that almost all the progressive symphonic bands have Baroque or Classic influence, but ELP is maybe the only one that bases their music in such a great period clñassical as the late 1800's early 1900's.

And IMHO Modern Classical is probably the most original classical music in history.

Iván

[JRV]

Maybe this doesn't count because it was not ELP, only "L", but for what it's worth...

8. Greg Lake released a Christmas single that was based on Prokofiev's Lieutenant Kije Suite. There were 2 versions, I think. A full-out choired and orchestrated version and one that was simpler. Both were pretty nice.

Don't know if anyone here has ever heard of The Free Design; wouldn't call them prog although they were so hard to classify they might as well be. No, they were pre-prog. Late-60s. They also did a song called Kije's Ouija whose chorus, or middle 8, or something, was taken from Lt. Kije. Free Design had 2 modes: Predictable and provocative. Always one or the other. Also produced impeccable quality recordings that were quickly decimated by my crystal cartridge with its massive tracking force and minimal compliance. Been a loooong time since I played a Free Design record.

And, LMG, a Lafayette amplifier! That's a blast from the past. I'd forgotten all about Lafayette. My first pair of component speakers were Lafayette. I was in maybe 7th grade at the time. I think I blew them out in about a week! With a Sears Silvertone tube amplifier I bought in a garage sale for $2. Probably playing a Free Design record.

I guess I must finally be a certified old man; all these trips down memory lane!

[KeithieW]

Quote.
And IMHO Modern Classical is probably the most original classical music in history.

I do know what you mean Ivan but don't you think that at the time that Beethoven, for example, was writing his Eroica symphony which timed in at 40 minutes plus when most symphonies were in the 20 minute area the same was said then?

But I do agree that music in the current "Classical" field CAN BE extremely good. I love Steve Reich's "Octet".......It actually reminds me of Tangerine Dream played on acoustic instruments. His "Different Trains" is a masterpiece. Really moving (no pun intended) and when I saw a documentary where Reich was explaining the circumstances of it's composition and what it meant to him it made it even more so.

However, the Composer who gets inside MY head the most is Philip Glass. I recently went to a performance of the film Koyannisqatsi where the PG ensemble were playing live to the film and it nearly blew me away. I'm sorry to use such a well worn cliche here but I can't describe it any other way. The way the music and film (there is no dialogue, just images) are united in an almost sexual bond is beautiful. I would say that it is my favourite film EVER.

What I don't like in the current "Classical" world is the, what seems to me like a, massive upserge in the popularity of Film Soundtrack music. Every time I tune into a classical music station all I ever seem to hear is "Lord of the Rings", "Harry Potter" ot "Star Wars" music. No-one ever seems to play music by other comtemporary composers like Turnage or Adams who are also worthy of a listen.

Right I'll put my soap box away now and go and request a bit of Philip glass on AM.......thanks guys.

And Jeff, welcome to the Old Mans Club. Life membership only but, my god, it's a fun place to be!!!!!!

[ivan_2068]

What I don't like in the current "Classical" world is the, what seems to me like a, massive upserge in the popularity of Film Soundtrack music

Can't agree more Keith, but you're going a step forward, technicaly Modern Classical goes from the late 1800's to 1930 or 1940. Current classical is considered Contemporary.

When I talk about Modern Classical, i refer to the movement born during the Russian Nationalism, that broke with the musical standarts from Europe and created a totaly diferent, firm and agressive movement, in rebelion to the soft Romantic period that was ending.

And yes, I call current classical "Holywood Classic", because they seem to have the monopoly of the arts.

But there are great musicians (not in the Hollywood mafia) in current days like: Georgy Sviridov (died in 1998), the wonderful Galina Ustvolskaya, Giya Alexandrovich Kancheli or Sergey Starostin (more in the Jazz mood in this days).

Iván

PS: Before somebody asks (like they did in other forums) it's only a coincidence between the fact that I like Russian Music and my name. I have no Russian family, don't know why my parents namd me Iván, I'm 50% Spanish, 50% scottish :D

Iván

[Neil T]

Originally posted by black max
I think the idea of a dedicated show is very good. I wouldn't put too much into the general library.

Nah! That would completely destroy the concept.

If you want dedicated classical music there's stations for that. The whole point of mixing prog and classical is that they're really all part of the same genre and to recognize that and enjoy the whole broad range of music is so much more enjoyable than getting stuck in some narrow little fashion slot.

To say you don't want classical in a prog rock station puts you in the realm of people who "only listen to (house, or jazz, or blues, or classical or whatever)".

I don't want to be a music snob or a fashion police. I want to hear quality music. lots of it. And everything that goes with it.

If I listen for a couple of hours and hear 15 songs I love, 1 classical, 4 I don't like, and that boring piece of #### that just showed up under the name Philip Glass - well I reckon I've done OK.

[byzantium]

????

Are you saying that prog is closer to classical music than to rock music?

[Neil T]

Originally posted by byzantium
????

Are you saying that prog is closer to classical music than to rock music?

Certainly closer to classical than to jazz or blues, though it borrows from all the forms.

I'd say that what makes prog prog is it's relationship to the classical forms, though. Classical music is progressive in the classical (OK, early English) meaning of the word (and by "early" I mean '70s).

The single identifying feature that distinguishes prog from other forms is that the music progresses from one theme to another, never quite exactly to return. And that form also is a defining theme of classical music.

In terms of sounds, and timbres, and chord choices prog ROCK is rooted in blues, jazz and rock. In terms of internal structure and structural forms PROG rock is rooted in classical.

A guitarist might notice timbre and chords before he notices structure. I'm a drummer. I notice structure before I notice timbre and I couldn't tell your C# from A flat morris minor.

[byzantium]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste then that prog to me is much closer to jazz than to classical. I love the music that came from the Canterbury scene and Great Deceiver-era King Crimson (who incorporated both improvisional elements and classical styles while avoiding symphonic song-structures).

Still there is one thing that – to me at least – is inherent in all prog, and that is complexity. That's characteristic both of the classical and the jazz/improvisional.

[ivan_2068]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste then that prog to me is much closer to jazz than to classical.

Well Byzantium, there are different branchs or sub-genres of Prog music, but Symphonic Prog (Yes, Genesis, etc) and Classic Prog' (ELP, Le Orme, The Nice) are much more closer to classical music, Symphonic to Baroque and Classic to Modern.

Of course there are some other sub genres that are closer to Jazz, like Fusion, Space Prog', Progressive Fusion and Progressive Space Fusion or even Canterbury.

Are you saying that prog is closer to classical music than to rock music?
IMO Progressive is not close to Rock, Progerssive IS rock with other genres influence.

Iván

[roger]

someone mentioned that if you wanted to hear Classical music, there are plenty of radio stations out there. well, that's true, but very few of them play the kind of "Classical" music we're talking about. mostly you get Classics Lite, programmed not to offend or educate anyone... not that I mind a little Haydn now and again, but sheesh...
I think AM would do well to throw in some Ligeti or Adams or Reich or Prokofiev, etc., etc., now and then. keep us on our toes. I heard a great contemporary percussion concerto a couple of years ago, featuring Airto Moriera that kicked.
one of the reasons I love prog is that it challenges me....
:cool:

[Neil T]

Originally posted by roger
someone mentioned that if you wanted to hear Classical music, there are plenty of radio stations out there.
Sure! Limiting oneself that narrowly is for people who're more interested in making a fashion statement than in enjoying good music. IMO
I think AM would do well to throw in some Ligeti or Adams or Reich or Prokofiev, etc., etc., now and then. keep us on our toes. ... one of the reasons I love prog is that it challenges me....
:cool:

Sure. I'd go along with that POV 100%

[Josephus]

I suspect I'm in a minority here; but I'm not sure if I dig listening to classical music on AM.

I understand the connections. I love Yes and ELP and realize that without the great classical masters we wouldn't have Wakeman and Emerson. But I'm not sure classical music is what I want to hear when I tune into AM

To make your point, today, right now, you just played some lengthy classical compositon, followed by Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother....as if to say, "See...it's one and the same."

No, not really. My feeling is this is supposed to be a prog rock station. We have enough of a hard time defining prog rock--do we really need to venture into further uncharted territory?

[JRV]

you just played some lengthy classical compositon, followed by Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother

Darn...and I missed it.

Indeed, you do seem to be in a minority. I'm a little surprised, because if I recall, it was Avian who said that most people DIDN'T want classical on AM. Perhaps the tide has turned?

And regarding ventures into uncharted territory...count me in. That, to me, was "what radio should be and what radio once was," to turn a prominently-displayed phrase. And what AM, whatever its other virtues may be, generally is not.

Nor, save for the impropriety of off-topic-ness, would I confine my comments to classical.

[ivan_2068]

there are plenty of radio stations out there. well, that's true, but very few of them play the kind of "Classical" music we're talking about. mostly you get Classics Lite, programmed not to offend or educate anyone

Agree, if I listen Vivaldi's Four Seasons again, I'll kill somebody, they play it in radio, public offices, restaurants, theater (before the show starts) or even in elevators (muzac style).

Not that I hate Vivaldi, but enough is enough.

Iván

PS: I never get to listen good old Wagner anywhere, except in my room when my girlfriend is not near, her father is Jewish and taught her Wagner's music is pro nazi (?). I'm trying to convince her music is not evil, even when it may have been badly used, but I have to respect her feelings.

[La Mano Gaucha]

Jim:

I'm sorry I haven't been able to reply earlier. The short list that you requested a while back is on its way. I only need a day or two to finalize my suggestions for particular recordings. The list won't be long -- only about fifteen essential CDs from the repertoire of the 20th century, vis a vis relevance to Prog Rock.

All others:

Thanx for the replies to the thread. I very much appreciate an interest in the topic we are here discussing.

Some of you mentioned certain composers I feel are interesting. Kancheli comes to mind. Some of his symphonies are original and thought-provoking, although not too close to AM repertoire, as they are highly specialized, in a sense. The symphonies of Gloria Coates are interesting as well, even if formally chaotic, giving precendence to a psychological programe of sorts, and technically far different from the vast majority of conventional Prog Rock. I think that the Ives 4th is close, in a somewhat loose and aracane aesthetic way. I have recommended this piece to Jim, so let's see where it goes.

Anyhow, the thread is moving along well and I'm happy to see that many of you are interested!

best to all,

LMG

PS: I've always considered "Atom Heart Mother" to be the crucial link to the later Floyd. Without it, "Echoes" would be unthinkable.

[dougm]

relating back to the original intent of the thread, i think midnight syndicate might belong on am. dark gloomy horror movie theme like music. i like them. not everyone's cup of tea.