Vocals huh? Well, that's gonna depend on a lot of things. #1, they key. #2, the lyrics.

I say we shoot at making an instrumental first, just to get the procudure down.

almost forgot!
 

I also toot on the didjeridu, and have a couple of really nice ones to provide drones... of course that depends on if the project goes in an ethno-world-space-neo-cultural-dreamtime direction! :D

I even have the circular breathing thing down.... my friends have seen me go through a meal and claim I'm capable of "circular eating" too!

I don't. My singing voice has been banned in 17 states plus the District of Columbia and 5 Canadian Provinces as either a torture device or a weapon of mass destruction.

Funny enough, I could sing in California legally.

Once. :D

Roger -Dot- Lee, Yodel-ay-dee-h0000000

been on the run ever since?

:D

I always say I moved here because of the insane cost of living in California.

That much is true.

That's all I'm gonna say on THAT subject.

i can't believe i overlooked this thread 'til now..(!)

ok...recording bass is a bit more complicated than
just plugging into the soundcard.

the input has to be compressed to max the notes,
(in layman's terms) reduce the distortion.

monitoring is a challenge, almost impossible on pc speakers.
even if you think it sounds good, it's going to sound like
ummm... mud on monitors.
-----------------------------------------------------
we record the same way, in our case on very diverse equipment
from sequencing (me, sonar 4 producer) to a korg hard disk
(steve). von's bass was recorded at steffen pressley's
song-haven studios in LA.
it's really not much different than the way DSOTM
or abbey road was recorded. i'm sure you've all seen the
scenes on the .."pompeii" film, gilmore on a stool w/ headphones.
there was very little live interaction on these 2 greats.
------------------------------------------------------
my advice would be to start w/a small piece, possibly an intro,
become familiar w/ the process before diving in.
get the sound down before going at an arrangement.
-------------------------------------------------------
dot~ you've dl'd tunes from my rifftrader account.
do you think it's user friendly enough for this?

also, most dsl/broadband allows for up to 5 mg.
direct transfer to IE. while working out parts, it saves
beau coup time to send 128k files rather than the full .wav,
especially for dialup users.


fire the questions, i'm at the computer all day.

k

Hello Moonies, I'm back from vacation and ready to work on the project. It's probably time to begin it.

Well, as a teenager, I sometimes have problems with taking decisions so I'm asking you: "where should we begin ?"
Does someone know ?

:D

hi elric-
while the logical answer would usually be "at the beginning",
that's not really true w/digital recording.
this doesn't have to be linear in any way, parts can be
added at any time, into any place in the song.

i tell most beginners (and longtime musicians):D to
think of it like legos that each have a musical phrase attached.

personally, i'd say dot should give us a few bars in an
agreed on key (A is always good), add some efx...think the intro to "end of the day" to the cym hit.

k

S'OK, Sir. I'd have eventually come to you once we started making noises.

I'm not kidding in the least when I say that my knowledge of such things is on par with my knowledge of brain surgery (I'm aware that they both exist, and that's about it).



I'd have to register an emphatic 'YES' on this. However, I've seen the downloads, not the uploads. Is it much different? If not, it should be a walk in the park.



For the initial work, perhaps. But we have to remember that we're going to be working with the lowest common denominator here. If we can do my gig, and, say, Spaz and Moses at 192k, but Elric (or Roger or Sharc or ...) can only come in at 128k, will we not all be forced down? What kind of hit are we going to have to take? Will it matter and will we be able to work with/around it?

See? My knowledge of such things is, shall we say, rather limited.



Heh. You DID ask. See? He asked for it! :D

Roger -Dot- Lee

well...if you listen to MP3's on your computer,
everything *should* be good to go.

you'll need to locate the "MIC in" on your soundcard.
this will be a 1/8, so you'll need a radio shack adapter
to 1/4 in.(like a guitar cord) for the next item, a microphone.

one of those cheap goosenecks that "comes with" vid cams,
ect. will do for starters. that won't need an adapter.
we're after routing at this point, making the VU's jump,
not pristine sound.

next, you'll need a sequencer to "capture" the audio,
present .wavs as a graphic. vax mentioned garageband
that's included w/ the latest servicepack.
getting this as an add on is amazing.

moses' "audacity"suggestion looks good for a beginner.
nice simple interface, small cpu requirements.

depending on your computing power, there's also options
like the FREE protools LE available at
http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/mac/
pc users- there's a pc version also. 8 tracks of audio...
128 midi tracks plus effects...you can't beat the price.
-------------------------------------------

as far as kbs goes, size doesn't matter on the collaboration end.
truncation occurs when compressing files to mp3, zip ect.
fr'instance- the files on my computer are .wavs to be made
into a cd file. i encode as needed, in the moon's case, @192kbs.
all audio files in the sequencer are originally recorded as 1114k
.wav files.

it's a question of how long an up/download takes, a patience/convenience issue.
a dialup may take hours to upload a 192k file, where dsl takes a couple of minutes.
from experience, that beats the crap out of creativity when things are rolling,
so dialup users can send smaller files, replace them say, before going to bed w/ .wavs.

quality's worth sacrificing for speed at this stage.
all files are "traded out" to full .wavs in the final product.
on a pc, it's simply "save as..."choose "windows wav" from
the list. the file has to be converted by the original person,
an mp3 can't be reconverted to a full .wav.
clear as mud?

If you launch your project guys it won't be the first Moonies band.
And be aware distance recording is EXTREMELY difficult and time-consuming. In normal situation you want to hear new version of song with one parameter changed so you push the button and you got it. In case of virtual band you have to write info, then info must be received, parameter changed, song exported to mp3, put on a server, downloaded from a server, listened, comment written. That lasts.

I mentioned Elric possibility of recording song for fun. But in case of album and a band... that's a long way. To be precise - 16 months seems like the beginning of the road.

But anyway, TRY!

recording bass
 

In regards to kirk's concern for recording bass... I have a bass and am mildly proficient at playing it. It's not my primary instrument by any stretch of the imagination. That said, if I'm to be the bassist (I don't recall seeing anyone else say they could do it) I can do the compression thing necessary to make it full and plump like a bass should sound.

Maybe in the initial stages the effects like that should be minimal (just enough to get things going) and then the mixer/producer can add more for the final mixdown if necessary, since it's awfully hard to remove such things if you decide it's too much. Certain songs could require a different bass sound and if you hardcode certain effects and EQ settings into it, you're stuck with it.

Re: recording bass
 

Hrm.

Now I may have misread what Moses was saying, or I may have the concept completely backwards, but wouldn't it be better to have the additional wing-dings and goo-gaws in the original recording, removing them later if necessary? Or would it be better off starting with the spartan sound and adding the effects later as desired? I always thought that more would be better since it's easier to remove after the fact than to add.

Is this a mistaken impression?

Roger -Dot- Lee, showing his appauling lack of knowledge of such things.

dot~ no, the producer/mixer wants a clean sound minus
reverbs, ect. there's no taking it out , "fixing it in the mix"
once it's in the original recording.

at mastering, judicious amounts of 'verb is applied
to the complete mix. if a track has efx applied prior,
then it's efx over efx, usually muddying the sound.

moses~ cool! i was referring to elric's suggestion to spaz
re: plugging a bass directly into a soundcard.
(highly not recommended!) LOL

what make/model bass do you have?

i'm in studio hell today, trying to sort why my mackie mixer
has developed an annoying hum in the non-balanced 1-6 channels.

i'll keep an eye on my mailbox.

k

Speaking of effects, I have a nice sound when recording my guitar with a clean sound on the computer, but the overdriven sound is awful ... That's the same for all my effects pedals. Do you how could I do if I want reverb, overdrive, wah-wah or any other effect ?

Kirk: I was hoping you'd chime in on this.



OK, I'll go with that. I was under the understanding that it would be much like removing layers of stuff in case it wasn't needed. I didn't realize it was so dependent.

With that in mind, then yeah, Moses' idea hits the mark in a big way.

And here I thought I was gonna make it through today without learning something. :D



OK, so the more pristine the sound (especially for the bass) the easier it is for whomever's taking things and mashing them together into a coherent unit. I geddit now.



Heh. Even with my extremely limited knowledge of the business (and the technical end of things), even *I* know that this isn't a Good Idea(TM).

OK. So now we've got the lineup. We've got our mixer in place, and the technical aspect of things are starting to line up.

Now who's going to write the tunes for this endeavor? I might be able to help, but I'd probably be better off helping those that can't read music get over that disadvantage.

Roger -Dot- Lee, learnin' things in spite of himself.

that's true as to track count. sometimes "less is more",
so, good to cut the extraneous.

you can eliminate tracks, but efx are permanent.

elric~ guitars aren't quite as problematic as bass.
the guitar takes up space in the mid-upper bandwidth
generally, w/o much competition, so it takes more abuse.
my buddy steve loves the doubler (oy!)..but it sounds so
good it's worth the effort to tame it. easy on the reverb.

re- pedals- remember you're going from analog to digital.
pedals that do extreme changes like overdrive are primarily made for
live application. most o' my guitarist friends have switched to
DI boxes like the line 6 pod, amp simulators for digital recording.
pedals, and the more items you have in the chain add to the noise floor.
at mastering, that rises along w/ the music.

again, monitoring is a problem. pc speakers, ect.
don't have the sonic range.

Well I have to admit I don't understand half what you said ...
In English, that's a lot more difficult for me of course.

Is there a way of using guitar FX without buying expensive materials ? For an example, is there a software that can overdrive our reverb my clean sound ?

guitar
 

I was gonna say something like what kirk said... if you plug in direct with overdrive effects, you get a nasty sound. Your guitar amp is made to make those things sound good. Actually, the other way around - they're made to sound good through guitar amps. (oddball technical info omitted)

Yes, there are studio effects that can make a clean guitar sound like its overdriven through an amp. I personally don't have anything I really like in that department, but when I record my guitar, I use the amp simulator on my effects unit (Boss GT-6) because it sounds better than my real amp and I don't have to mess with microphones and getting the right sound... it's already set up in the amp simulator.

Probably what would be best for you would be to use a real amp and a microphone - a Shure SM-57 or 58 would work great. If you can't do that and nobody else has a software effect that sounds good, I can run your guitar part through my amp simulator and back into the computer. Sounds like the long way around, but it just might work!

everybody else
 

First off, I didn't mean to kick Spaz off bass. I somehow remembered that he offered to add vocals but forgot about bass. My bass is a rather cheap Squier MB-5 (because an odd number of strings is an absolute necessity :D for me.) It's blue.

I need a scorecard here. Anyone else?

Elric - guitar
Yesspaz - bass, vocals
Roger.Lee - euphonium
roger - keys, vocals, bass, drums, vocals, some horns
tobyGnome - cello
moses - guitar, bass (trumpet if necessary, given the other horns available)
VAX - keys, 12 string guitar, trombone
sharcnorris - keys
fremder99 - drums (electronic kit)
progdirjim - drums

If we're starting with an instrumental then vocals are not necessary (unless we want backing "ahhhs" or something) so if Spaz wants to play the bass that's fine with me.

Elric - if you came up with an idea we can start with - even if it's just one 30-second section of the song - we could start there, even if it's not the beginning. Like kirk said, we can (digitally) splice away if we need to. The initial tracks should probably be played to a metronome (let us know the tempo!) or else the drummer could have a really rough time following the rest of us.

Drummers aren't meant to follow.

I said I could add vocals if no one else wanted to do them. I'm not a great singer by any definition (although I'm probably better than a lot of prog vocalists).

If there's someone else chomping to play bass, that's fine with me. I would need a technical genius to help me record anyway. But if someone has to double up and play like, 3 instruments, that's not cool. No offense to roger, but let's involve a lot of people. This is for fun, right? We're not trying to get a record deal?

hi spaz~ it's not a miracle, but you will have to invest a few
$$, at the very least buy a DI box, or some higher end
software w/ built in compression.
recording vocs or bass is the same basic deal,
you have to get the sound into the computer.
--------------------------------------------
the 1st order of business is checking off who
has the ability to record sound into the computer,
who needs assistance.
don't think anything of it, i know many seasoned
old school pros that can't get their heads around it...
say no more...he may be lurking....;)

other factors, we have no idea of individual skill levels.
maybe we could have all involved do a riff or 2...
show yer chops?
that'd be a good time to make adjustments,
have the others comment on how the sounds translate to
a variety of speakers before recording tracks.

moses is correct, placing drums as an afterthought is
very difficult. being a keyboard-based writer, i usually
work to a "click track", which functions like a metronome.
it keeps the beat, allows for the drums to added at any
point in the tune. it also saves the producer's ears.

from experience (also from playing flute), the quieter
instruments, vocs would be the best place to start.
this establishes the instrument, where it may have a difficult
time "punching through" after everything's going.

if we need a vocal blast to get this rolling, a good way to do it
is to use single piano notes to place the vocs.
the piano works as a marker, the melody's translated to lyrics and replaced later.
experienced vocalists "la-la" scratch vocs,
but for the less experienced, singing over piano notes
helps to keep them in pitch (i also have auto-tune, pitch correction software)
....never use it:D

i agree w/ spaz, it'd be cool to include some of our
non-musicians, on things like contributing to lyrics.

k

or...
 

Another possible approach would be to start with the drums. Once a groove is laid down, either add your melody instrument first and build backing tracks down from there, or add your rhythm instruments first and build up to the melody.

Starting with drums makes it easy in the short term... No worries about what key to play in. Got a favorite time signature? :D

I've read your post Moses and I guess you'll have to effect my parts yourself cuz' I have no amp simulator and not even any amp simulation software.

I have some ideas I could throw on a recording and all of you could choose the best of them or know what we can do with them. How do I put them in download on Rifftrader ?

'allo elric- not to worry, i have amp sims and efx out
the proverbial ying yang.:D
if you have a small practice amp and a mic,
want to record direct, i'll send you instructions.
there's a few tricks that help the sound greatly.

here's a resource for such things-
http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/win95/GUITAR/

some things are freeware, some shareware on the
honor system, some 30 day demos.
--------------------------------------------------------

i setup a rifftrader account for the project-
go to www.rifftrader.com
rifferX/members/lockbox

user-auralmoon
psw-moonies

to avoid confusion,everyone can use the
administration password/user.
i don't *think* it reads IPs, but if you can't get in,
i'll issue individual passwords.

files usually can be DL'd from the main, bypassing the
DL page(R click "save target as.."on the PC)

upload is at the top of the screen.
be patient after clicking upload(especially you dialup users)
don't navigate away from the page or open other programs.

let me know how it goes.

k

If this is gonna cost me $, you'll have to count me out then. I'm broke, living off loans until I graduate and get a job.

FWIW, the standard analog way of doing things is drums, bass, rhythm guitar, lead guitar, keys, misc. instruments, vox. In the computer age it's probably easier to do other ways.

and Kirk, remember that though you've been doing this a while, we're novices! :D

And "favorite time signature?" "lyrics" etc. - how about we simply do a short, straight-ahead 4/4 rock instrumental first. No need to tackle an epic with time changes and stuff only to run into technical difficulties. Let's make sure we can actually DO this before we attempt to do a masterpiece. "FUN" is the word. No need to try to figure out skill levels and such right now. I say use the KISS method for now - Keep It Simple, Stupid! :p

Of course, my involvement depends on time and $.

Finally, with the issue of lyrics, We're a diverse group of people from different continents, cultures, political views, religious views, and social views. This should be a project that brings us together. I wouldn't want to be a part of a project that bashed Christianity, or promoted the legalization of marijuana anymore than someone else my not want play on a song that's anti-marijuana or pro-Christianity. So, may I suggest we don't get political, religious, or even ideological in this song-writing. Keep it, ya know, "fun" and "friendly." Just my two cents.

Spaz out.

LOL all this technical jargon like "find the mic in on
your soundcard".

look..you listen to mp3s on your computer.
that means all the connections are good to go.
"your soundcard is working w/ the speakers to make noise".

now, you need to tap in. (on a PC) the soundcard is
on the backside of the computer tower, one of the vertical
slots at the bottom. unless you have a terrible soundcard,
you'll see jacks. the big ones w/ pin connections are midi
in/outs to connect to a keyboard.
one, usually chrome plated, a 1/8 jack(same size as portable
cd player headphones) will say "mic in".
for a vocal mic w/ a 1/4 in plug (guitar cord sized),
you'll need an adapter ($2 at radio shack). plug in a mic.

in system/multimedia or accessories/entertainment in the program list,
you'll find volume controls.

next, you'll need a way to "capture" the sound,
make it into a .wav file, so you can send it to rifftrader.

think of a sequencer exactly the same way as a tape recorder.
that's all it is, a digital representation of a tape recorder,
w/all the same controls, FF, rewind, record ect.

moses' suggestion of the free audacity program is a good one,
see the link on the previous page, download it.

under "options/audio", you should see the name of your soundcard in a dropdown list.
choose it, or move it to the top, whichever you're instructed to do.

arm a track for recording. speak into the mic.
if all's well, the vu meters will jump.

that's as simple as it gets.

oh, and i guess my "nuke the gay whales" idea's out, eh?;)

k

how about
 

a Godspeed type tune? You should be able to record that in a few hours.....everyone could pick a note, we'll sustain it for 45 seconds, and build from there...

oh sorry that's not helping...:)

Ok I've found a way to effect my tracks with an amp simulator (ReValver) and to record them through a recorder that I connect instead of my speakers. That way, the sound is clean and there are no noises around. After that, I only have to convert the .wav files to mp3.

Now I can put some of my ideas on the Rifftrader account that Kirk has given us, and you all can download them. I'm afraid nothing is interesting, though, cause I have no musical creativity. The 1st sample is already on the account but I guess it's not worth anything. Download it and tell me. I believe I've heard it somewhere and I'm not sure it isn't an existing song already. Well, you just tell me :):)

If my creations are no good, someone please begin to record something and put it on the Rifftrader account.

If nothing of all this is good, I suggest that our keyboardist begins to record something, that way that'll be easier for me (and probably for some of you) to play something over it.

It's time to begin that project while I still have a computer to do it. In a few months, I will leave my home for a flat and have no CPU to record, except 1 week end per month, when my studies will allow me some spare time. Sorry for bothering you with that but I'd like at least to have even a little part of a song before leaving ...

Thanks to all of you, who decided to help me in that project, and sorry for hurrying you up.

sorry for not responding sooner, thurs.& fri. are the days off,
out of the studio.

well, that's a start! you made the guitar/computer connection,
a good thing. Revalver's a cool amp sim eh?
the price is certainly good;)

as we mentioned, it's difficult to match drums to existing
tracks, but this gives us a picture of what you're thinking.

i find that a concept is a good place to start.
last night i thought "we need a basic prog tune".
then, "why not "basic" as a theme"?

i'm thinking an ambience for a starter, vocs coming in
over top-

"basic as-----------------,
basic as--------------------,
basic as a human need
basic as the air we breathe"

maybe introduce the bass in the 2nd line, a pause
after the words, drums and guitar comes in...
i'll place the vocs w/ a melody piano line
over a scratch drum. start simple, build as we go.

taking suggestions for the 1st 2 lines in the lyric!
anyone's welcome to join in.
if you have the winning line, you're in the credits.

what say all involved?

k

Well Kirk I agree, your ideas are very helpful and interesting.

Did you check my soundsample on the rifftrader account ?
Can you tell me if we can do something with it ?

Ok, I reworked it a bit:


"Basic as lack and greed.
Basically we don’t care.
Basic as human need.
Basic as the want of air."

I dropped the "a" in the third line and redid the last line. Notice the juxtoposition of "need" and "want" in that couplet. Now, I twisted "basic" to "basically" in the second line. "Need" has many definitions, but using it as "essential (n.)" and "poverty" you get a good bit of synonym play with "need," "want," and "lack." The first couplet says a lot, I think, about the desire to help eliminate poverty and the basic problem that we're all greedy - we want SOMEONE ELSE to end poverty. Maybe the goverment, maybe rich philanthropists, but we're never quick to sacrifice of ourselves - myself included. So anyway, that's what I did with it....


PS. If "Nuke" were a name that'd be a good name for a punk band. "Please welcome to Club 40, Nuke the Gay Whale.":p

back to basics is the cry
there's no need to ponder why
basic as a human need
basic as the air we breathe

as another alternative. We're going to need an arbiter of lyrics, so they go in one direction. Since Kirk started them, I suggest he.

I prefer your suggestion progdirjim, but I'm no arbiter, let Kirk choose. I like that one cause there are cries included in it and because crying is one of the most basic things we do when we need something we can't have. We cry when we desire things we can't reach, we cry when we love someone we can't have, we cry when we are alone, and of course the 1st thing we do when we come to life is crying: the only thing that a new-born baby knows is how to cry. Considering this I'd say it's the most basic thing we can do so I found interesting to include it in the 1st verse (also because it marks our beginning as human beings it has probably to be at the beginning of the song). That's just my point of view, I'll let you choose which one you prefer.

Don't forget to download and listen my 1st sample on the rifftrader account so that I can improve it if needed, or change what I need to change, or forget it and try something else.
I thought it as an intro but it can be something else like a break.

Kirk is the most experienced in that I believe, so I'd gladly have his point of view about that sample, but I need the point of view of you all.

A newborn also knows how to make potty. :eek:


One off the top of my head, trying to incorporate the ideas:

A basic need for one to cry
Yet too ashamed to even try
It's as basic as the air we breathe
and every other human need

hey all- that "studio hell" i was referring to was my old trusty mackie mixer going belly up.
tough diagnosis, there's not much in a mixer to go wrong...except the power supply.

i just purchased this bad boy- http://www.mackie.com/products/cfx16mkii/index.html
along w/ a monster power supply conditioner.

as soon as i have the religion-losing rewire done,
i'll get that melody up on rifftrader. i'm thinking saturday.

jim- all good suggestions, but you're closer to the timing
and cadence i'm thinking of.

elric- i listened yesterday. it seems familiar to me also.
no value judgement, but w/o a beat, i just wouldn't have
a clue as to what to do w/ it at this point.
let's see where this "basic" idea goes.

k

well, I'm a drummer. If I can't get timing and cadence right, time to hang up the sticks (to mix a metaphor) :rolleyes:

If you need material, I have 3 albums (well 2 and a half) recorded for fun a few years ago. I think they're good. The only thing to do is to replace midi or vsti guitars, drums, bass, flutes etc. with real instruments.

The drawback is that all of them are concepts situated in given style according to the feel, message and atmosphere.

Maybe you could play them on the Moonie show?

Rick, in all honesty, I can't :eek: :) .
Two main reasons:
- 'not real instruments' (apart from keyboard, symphonic aspect) and bad mix make this not a good thing to publicate in such state.
- I'd like to release them as a professional thing. One album is being prepared.

If it's 'converted' into good sound with real instruments then surely AM will be the first place for it to be played.