Are prog fans Musicians?
 

Thor, KeithieW, Avian, and I were in the white room chatting during a particularly difficult Don Caballero piece where the band was being purposefully dischordant, and we ventured to guess that prog has a higher percentage of musicians as devotees than other forms of rock music. So here's a little poll.

Please also tell what instrument you play if you selected "Yes."

Yes, I am a musician. I play bass and guitar. Primarily bass. I'm pretty decent. As a guitar player, I'm really just a basic rhythm player-not very good.

No I'm not a musician... but I am an artist with a good ear and a penchant for music always open to music of all forms from folk to classical and opera to punk and newwave to rock and prog...

Have to say though that "most" pop and rap music is a waste of air space

:rolleyes:

IMHO


If I did take up an instrument I would say it would be the flute

I regret that I am not a musician.

I never got enough training as a kid as we moved around a lot and as soon as I had bulit up enough playing the piano we moved to where there was no piano. So I never got into playing in a band. (COuld never afford it anyway) I've never had a guitar in my life. Plus the problem I'm lefthanded.

I got the ears but not the hands. And I regret it like s**t.:(

Musicians...........
 

I still say that you don't have to be a musician to get the most out of music.

In the end it's all about what you feel, not what you know.

I can't paint to save my life but some pictures and other works of art move me greatly. Appreciation of all things comes from within.

By the way Spaz, I hope you class Singing as playing an instrument because otherwise I voted in the wrong category for you but not for me. :D

musicians
 

I postulated the same thing at one point at a ProjeKct Two concert, looking at the very diverse crowd with a wide range of ages, hairstyles, etc. It's not like a Phish concert where you get hippies and college kids who want to be hippies but drive their parents' Audis to shows.

(All this is greatly generalized, of course.)

I do like to call myself a musician. Like Yesspaz, I play guitar and bass. Primarily guitar, but I can fake it on bass half decently. If pressed, I can play a little bit of piano/keyboards, but only enough to get myself in trouble with someone who actually knows what they're talking about on the instrument. Given a week or two of preparation time, I could probably pull out the old trumpet and play you a nice tune on that, but as it stands I've got languishing lips.

Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

don't you mean difficult on the ear????

There are bands that I think are fun when discordant (such as Sleepytime Gorilla Museum or Primus) but for the most part it's annoying as hell.

The percentages of "musicians to non-musicians" would by definition be the same under any genre. The only exception is pop music, which would have more non-musicians by virtue of being more popular among the mainstream.

I take exception greatly to the premise that the more difficult the music is, the more you have to be a musician. I have not seen that in my many concert and other listening experiences.

Also, if you're at the opera, no one's going to walk up to you and say, "I sing opera and it was a decent show", but you will get at a prog show "man I play and that keyboard riff on the Triumphant Battle of the Spider Bitches excerpt part Seven was weak"! It just seems these prog-nerds are more prevalent.

Finally, I am a rock and roll fan before prog. I don't like prog because it's more difficult, only because it sounds good.

Musician? I played brass instruments in high school and can play a mean Black Sabbath on the piano, but I can't play anything else. What I do have is strong ear for musical content and a lot of memory space alloted for such things.

If we call musician a person who plays for fun only in the secluded spot of his own room then yes, I am a musician. :D Keyboards player and composer.

Re: Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

I take exception to that premise too. It is not the premise of my question. The premise is, "I bet that someone who is a musician or has studied music is more likely to listen to prog than someone who has never studied music or is not a musician."

Also, we've had two people who said "not musician" and no votes for "not musician." Don't forget to vote :)

I've been playing the electric guitar for almost four years, and I also fool around on the keyboard sometimes.

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I have not played a musical instrument since high shool. When I did I played Trumpet, Baritone, Sax (Tenor & Alto).

[quote]Originally posted by RogorMortis

I've never had a guitar in my life. Plus the problem I'm lefthanded.

That never stoped Jimi

Still dont have this Quote thing figured out yet :rolleyes:

not a musician, but the daughter of one
 

my only instrument would be the vocal chords which i exercise constantly...i've been told i have perfect pitch, sang all through hs...but i'm sure that's gone now...

my dad, as some of you know, played jazz trumpet with some of the best wayyy back in the day, both traditional and later years latin, he also played piano and drums. alas, he taught his girls naught :(, but first cousin Corky McClerkin can be found in the AMG and gives my dad full credit in his bio.

and if i were to play an instrument it would be the violin.

don't know why but that statement had me on the floor with laughter.:cool:

I like to consider myself a musician. I play guitar, trombone, and a little bit of keyboard. I've pretty much retired from playing trombone, though, because my trombone is ready to die, and after graduating from college I don't have a band to play in.

I also have this cool Snoopy jaw harp, but I don't like playing it, because it hurts my teeth.

Yes, they do make left-handed models for many of the most popular guitars. As Jimi did, he would simply put the strings on the guitar in the opposite order and flip it around, though where to put the strap might become an issue if you want to play that way. In addition, many accoustic guitars are perfectly symetrical, so it wouldn't matter anyway.

The only thing about playing a right handed guitar flipped as a lefty is the pick guard is in the wrong place, especially important on acoustics if you want them to stay in great condition. Also, lefty guitars can sometimes be more expensive than right handed ones. I don't really think that's fair, but I guess it's because they are harder to make, being that a lot of guitars are hand-made.

I guess people like the craftmanship, but my uncle, who is a dedicated Carvin fan (he turned me into one as well), seemed to think that their necks and bodies were really something. "You know how they do it?" he asked, "They use machines!" ;)

Either way, you are probably right about them being more expensive, but, for me, the pick guard has never really been that big of an issue. I guess it really depends on your technique, but my current electric (a BC Rich Warlock) has no pickguard whatsoever, and there seems to be no wear (I guess I just don't hit the body when I strum).

Have you ever noticed.........
 

how many Bass players are left handed???????

As for playing musical instruments. I can't play a note really but I do own a Fender Strat and a Marshall amp which, as regular shouters/chatters will know, I occaisionally plug in and massacre songs that are playing on the Moon. I'm left handed but "play" the guitar right handed. I can play golf left or right handed (my best score on a public course is 130 over par....maybe I CAN'T play golf left OR right handed).

How can you tell if a keyboard player is playing left handed..........just a thought!

Re: Have you ever noticed.........
 

Heh, nice.

I had a friend growing up who was ambidextrous in the true sense of the word. He threw a baseball right handed, but batted left. Shot basketball right handed, but wrote left. Show a bow right handed and a shotgun left. Ate with his right and bowled with his left. Weird.

Say, what sorts of equipment does everyone use? Keith's mentioning of his strat and Marshall amp made me curious to see what kind of instruments/equipment all the musicians own. Here is my list:

Guitars:

Squier (by Fender) Bullet [black] -- my first guitar (it was cheap)
BC Rich Warlock, Bronze Series (single-humbucker) [black] -- my secound and current guitar (it was discounted)
Johnson accoustic [blue] -- pawned off a friend for $30 (don't play it much)

Keyboard:

Casio CTK-150 -- dinky, bottom-of-the-line keyboard inherited from my deceased grandmother

Amps:

Optimus MPS-45 -- my first amp (puny bugger, not grounded properly)
Carvin SX-300 -- my second and current amp (very sweet), a graduation gift from my uncle

Pedals:

BOSS TU-2 Chromatic Tuner
Digitech XMM Metal Master -- heavy distortion
Ibanez CF7 Chorus/Flanger
Digitech XDD Digidelay -- various delay/echo functions


I also have a Crybaby wah pedal that is currently out of service (needs some soldering). It doesn't interact well with the Metal Master, though.

Gordon Bennett!!!!!!

When JamForte returns from holiday and decides to answer this question we may not see him in the chat room for a month or more. :D

Jam has (and plays) SO many different instruments he should open a museum!!!!!!!

equipment
 

I'm not too big on gear, but I have:

- Schecter A-7 (7 string solid body in the pic in the gallery)
- Schecter Jazz-7 (hollow body 7 string)
- Fender Strat plus (circa 1990, I modified the electronics a bit)
- Ibanez acoustic 7 string
- Squier MB-5 bass (5 string)

See a pattern there? I'm odd, I need an odd number of strings. Also:

- Peavey amp - I forget the model, sounds like crap
- Boss GT-6 pedal, whose amp simulator sounds much better than my amp, so I generally go through the board.
- King Student model trumpet

There's an old Poole piano at my house with a broken low F# and needs some attention. I never said I played it much though.

That's all I can think of.

I grew up in a musical household. My mom was a church organist and vocal soloist. All of us were required to take piano lessons as kids (although only one of the four of us stuck with it).

I played trumpet and sang all through HS and college, and I still sing with a semi-professional classical choral group in Milwaukee.

I got hooked on prog when my dad brought home Rick Wakeman's Six Wives of Henry VIII because he was a history teacher and thought it might be interesting. Since then I've been hooked on Yes, RW, Rush, Genesis, Crimson, and all of Yesspaz's other favs.

Rossi

I'm not a good enough musician to actually spend good money on nice equipment that won't be used properly. I therefore am content with my Lotus, a Fender clone p-bass. I have a Peavey Minx 110 bass amp. I have a Fender acoustic, bottom of the line, but sounds amazing. You'd never know it was only $200.

Musician? Me?
 

Hoo boy. My musical career is almost as checkered as the rest of my past....

Started out at 4 or so on piano. My mom knew she had a budding musician on my hand when I sidled up next to her, looked at the keyboard, and plinked out the "Texaco Star" commercial.

Went to clarinet for a couple of years, then worked my way through that family (alto, bass, etc), then I moved on to Sax, where I developed my taste for LARGE instruments (well, a bari sax IS large for a 10 year old....)

When that got boring, in Jr. High school, I picked up a baritone horn and blew a few notes out of it. Had all the scales down in a month or so and played that for a while.

Then I made the biggest mistake of my life. I picked up a french horn.

Once band directors find out that you can play french horn, they won't let you play anything else. I played that cursed instrument for going on 15 years before I finally said "To HELL with it!" and dropped music entirely (right about the same time I got out of college).

Now I play euphonium in the local concert band (after extracting a promise that I would NEVER EVER EVER be forced to play French Horn UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES etc). I never played anything that'd fit in a rock or prog band. Not nimble fingered enough, I suppose.

Oh, I did try flute once. Almost passed out. Gave me a whole new appreciation of flute players...

Roger -Dot- Lee

Re: equipment
 

Yes, I would like to pick up the 7 string as well--it seems like a lot of fun. Anyway, whenever I get the money, I know exactly what kind of guitar I am going to buy, and that will be a Carvin DC727C (or 747C) with a ruby red stain on quilted body, matching headstock, gold hardware, phase switche(s), and abalone block inlays (or none at all). I'm not sure what that will come around to exactly, but it should be in the neighborhood of $1000, which seems like a great deal to me (considering what it is).

Also, I wouldn't mind having one of their C66 models (they look very nice), but I want to get a 7 string model.

Roger wrote:

Then I made the biggest mistake of my life. I picked up a french horn.

Once band directors find out that you can play french horn, they won't let you play anything else. Then I made the biggest mistake of my life. I picked up a french horn.


Roger, you are SO right about the french horn. Lugged that thing for a year and then someone said my lips were spreading so that was that. It does have a sweet sound tho.

THEN, went on to flute, and played that right through school and beyond. Bouree played not very well, many many times. Never got the JTull breathlessness down, of course.

Poda, you mention that you would like to play violin. Interesting choice! Would you electrify it? I can see you doing ponty-esque stuff.

I think I'd take up piano.

m

sorry, roger! not sure why your quote ended up going twice. i really need to learn the art of the forum quote. it can't be that hard.

m

I absolutely love the violin, though I don't think I'm going to play many more instruments than I do now.

No issue, Mossy, hon.

I'nd I've longed lerned tto accept them. Anyway, the fornat used is:
[_quote] spewage [/_quote]

without the underscores, of course.

This retuuns: Hope that helps a little...

i'll spare you my equipment list :D

i think i see where yesspaz is coming from.
there's a refinement that happens as players mature.

that doesn't mean that a music fan appreciates
music less, but maybe doesn't comprehend
the "acrobatics" involved, the virtuosity in the
same way- ?

i.e.- i'd be curious to see what's in say..robt. fripp's
cd changer.
it's more likely to be segovia than prog, the reason being
that artists don't tend to listen to persons of lesser
talent or composing skill.

IMO- it's easier for the trained musician to tell if there's
"method to the madness" .

Now Kirk gets what I'm talking about! I'm not saying you have to be a musician to appreciate music, I'm just betting that a musician is more likely to like prog than a non-musician. Someone who's never played a lick may have harder time wrapping their brains around the 2nd section of Awaken, which is in 11-time, than a person who's played music.

Also, it's been my observation that musicians often do not listen to the kind of music that they play. I got some friends in a post-rock band, and the guitarist listens to Floyd, Miles Davis, and Sinatra.

Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

The purposefull dischordance is precisely what appeals to me in the Don Caballero piece. Much like a lot of Zappa passages that sound like so much confusion to so many people. Not many people can appreciate the difficulty in pulling that type of music off.

During my youth, I was attracted to music by bands like Gentle Giant because of their weird timing and beat structures. To this day, after countless listens, I still can't master the time changes in some of their songs. I just don't know how they did it! I guess that's what appealed to me the most. The fact that it challenged my musical intellect to try and keep up. I guess I was, and still am attracted to music that I just can't figure out.

Another aspect of music that will immediately grab my attention are complex vocal harmonies. I am continually disapointed by some of the excellent music I hear that is accompanied by vocals that don't do the music justice. I think this element is particular to Prog Music for some reason.

I am not a professional musician. I can play a little guitar and plunk around on a piano a little. I can't read a note of music, although I have a photographic ear. All I know about the notes on a guitar is E A D G B E. Every African Dog Gets Bones Easily. The only musical training I have ever received was in the way of vocals. I'n my youth I was quite the vocallist.....now the only singing i do is in my truck (with the windows up).

Professional musicians may have a better understanding about what is actually happening in a given song, but as far as appreciation goes......anybody with an ear has the capability to hear and enjoy whatever they are listening to.

I am not a mechanic, but I still appreciate it when my truck gets me to where I want to go.

Kev

Re: Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

And this is exactly the type of thing that turns me off from artists like Zappa and DCab. I enjoy a bit of discordance on occasion, but I'm firmly of the mindset that sampling the sound of a cat who's tail is caught in a blender and calling it music does NOT fly in my book.

But the, maybe that's why they make all this different music...because we all don't like the same thing.

You're in good company on that one. Some of my favorite tunage on AM is stuff that has ... non-standard time signatures. Trying to follow it is a challenge, and when they make it work to the point of "Whoa, how did they do THAT!", well, that's my kinda music.

I much prefer they do that in a sane and musical fashion than trying to see how many space chords(*) they can cram into a 32nd note run.



Heh. You're in good, GOOD company there. My singing voice tends to scare small children and domesticated animals.

Footnotes: The official definition of a 'space chord' would be a root plus minor 3 and 7, augmented 4, 8, 12, 13, 15 and 17 with diminished 6, 9, and 11.

At least according to my college music theory instructor.

Roger -Dot- Lee

Re: Re: Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

That's really cool Roger. After reading your post I realized that I am what could be considered as a "Musical Illiterate". I can understand music when I hear it. And I can vocalize music of my own with my voice. But I cannot read music nor can I write it!

I often wonder what I could have done with some real professional musical training. The only training I received was from jamming with other guys in garages and learning new chords and stuff. And doing this all the while we were so fucked-up we couldn't see straight!

I still think the only reason they let me jam with them in the first place was because I always had good weed.

Kev

kev- ah yes, the "wanna jam?":D

i'm sensing an "art vs.craft" side debate a'brewing.

i've been in a few of those (recently), sort of
the musician's equivolent of "prog, not prog".

using the beatles as a prime example-
john was likely the least musically proficient member,
but was probably the most artistic.
most of john's catalog holds up well after 30 years,
much of paul's doesn't.
"ebony and ivory" comes to mind.

much of the time in rock, it's an art student at the core-
lennon, jim morrison, pete townshend, david byrne...

what say you ?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

Really.

Hell, should our paths ever cross, and we find ourselves in the same room with a sheet of paper, I'll TEACH you how to read music. I've been reading it since I've been a precocious little twerp. Shouldn't be a problem. It's not rocket science, and I've been teaching people how to read music since I was about 10.

Of course, this doesn't include chord charts or other rock/jazz guitar notation. I'll give you the fundimentals. The rest is up to you.

Roger -Dot- Lee, teachin' again...

...Freddy Mercury....

(Graphic Artist, to be exact)

Kirk,

There are just too many factors to consider in such a debate. I would not engage anyone to argue one way or the other because there are just so many things I don't know.

For instance, I don't know if I agree with the basic premise that prog music has more devotees that are musicians than other forms of rock music. I can understand why someone would feel that way, but in reality, I think the bigger picture is much larger than that. First you would have to define "musicians". Then I suppose you would have to define "rock music". Not to mention trying to determine the definition of "prog music" itself. These three terms (prog music, musicians and rock music) are just too subjective, too vague and cover too wide a spectrum for any debate on their form or function to hold any merit whatsoever. There will always be those that agree with you and there will always be those that think you are absolutely psychotic.

As far as the "art vs craft" scenario, call me crazy, but in my mind they are one and the same.

Kev

Good thread. I wish I hadn't been away from my computer for the last few days, so I could have participated more. I'll comment on a few things where I think I have something to contribute.

My musical heritage: I play drums, I'm pretty good. I currently own a Tama 5 piece and a Yamaha 7 pad digital, plus an assortment of latin percussion. I'm pretty mediocre on the latin stuff. I play acoustic guitar (a decent Yamaha), I'm fair on that. I play keyboards (an old Casio, probably the same as Eating Lemur(I think it was)), and I'm poor on those, but writing melody is easier on that than on the guitar for me. I played cello and violin in junior high school/high school. Cello is the french horn of the orchestra. I couldn't get instruction on the violin until I started figuring out the violin part and playing it on the cello. My being out of sync with the other cellists bugged our conductor enough. I was first chair cello, but I still felt like I was accompanying too often...

Prog music, by my "definition", is typically more complex than "straight rock", so I suppose a musical education may help one appreciate that technical factor more. I don't believe it's necessary though.

Keithie, singing definitely qualifies as an instrument. I wish I could sing more than cheezy backing vox.

As far as discordant music goes, I'm always suspicious. I allow for the possiblity that they're playing something orderly, but too complex for me to grasp. But deep down I feel many or most artists who play that type of music are trying to be complex without truly understanding composition or orchestration. Don Cab wanders off into that territory at times, but at other times I get exactly what they're doing, so who knows?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are prog fans Musicians?
 

That's funny - now that may explain the presence of the Flute player in Ozrics.:D

About the Baritone (Euphonium) Roger - I wanted to play trombone in fifth grade and so did everyone. The same theory about the French Horn applied for the Baritone. I lugged that around until 10th grade, it was horrible. Having to perform the theme from "The Vikings" movie, and getting it stolen etc....

When marching band came along, that was my out....no way I was keeping up with it. Plus the bass clef was not helpful to translate to other instruments. Then I just lost interest.

Now my fifth grader just played Trombone and wants to switch......