Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Well, I'm asking. I know NOTHING of what doing this consists of. I have some instruments, little talent, and a computer.........What do I need to do to record my inner musical creative thoughts? Software? Hardware? Mixers? Mikes? Drum machines? Keyboards? Please, any help will be much appreciated. Thanks, Rob :dunno:

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

greetings roberto !!!

let's see if i can help.


Software - yes.

Hardware - not really to get started (i don't use anything specialized)

Mixer - not to get started (i STILL don't use one)

Mikes - yes, if you plan on singing or adding vox to your trax.

Drum machines - yes and no (ask me)

Keyboards - yes and no (ask me about that too!)

I'm going to post the very FIRST thing i recorded on my pc ok??

be back.

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

ok....i had to find it, ul it and make a stub file so it will stream...

this is the first thing i did with pc recording. the ONLY thing you are hearing on this piece instrumentally, is the built in MIDI capabilities that my soundblaster sound card had available. sound cards have built in MIDI voices, which include different drum and other instrument sounds (guitar, organs, synth), that are accessible through the qwerty board, some are chessy, some sound pretty good.

ALL of these sounds were accessed throught the 'qwerty' keyboard. that means for drums and percussion, i would be tapping on the computer keyboard in the rhythm i wanted, with each letter being a different drum voice (snare, bass drum, hi-hat etc.) and the same is true for all the other musical 'voices'. i was playing the qwerty like it was an 88 key keyboard, with each letter being a different note on the scale for each particular voice. so this song is ALL MIDI, every bit of it EXCEPT for the vox tracks i layed on it with a cheapo radio shack microphone that i had laying around.

it's weirdly titled because this was the phrase the melody came off of, and it was just an experiment to learn, so i left it as is. it sounds kinda of ethnic/african or something...but i think you'll get the picture. it's called:

Kharme' Yoogi Zuppa

so...this is with NO instruments ie, guitars, bass, real keys or even a drum machine. just to show that even with just the software (this was done with cakewalk 7 i believe), a reasonable sound card , and a crappy old mic, something can be created.

questions?

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

nice stuff, ric! what else you got? :D

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

This file is MIDI? What is .m3u?

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

no, the m3u file is a 'stub' file. the m3u extension is just a text file that points to the mp3 file, that streaming media players recognize as a legitimate format. m3u is usually used for multiple song 'playlists' BUT, it also has the nifty advantage of causing the mp3 file to stream rather than the usual wait to download and play.

the 'voices' on the tune are MIDI voices that were accessed through real time hammering on the qwerty keys, recorded in real time in cakewalk.

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

OK.

I opened the file in my editor and copied the link into a browser.


I have an M-Audio KeyStation 49e (USB MIDI) which I can plug into my Powerbook. The KeyStation also has standard MIDI DIN connectors so I can plug the Roland KR570 digital intelligent piano in and have real piano action to play on and a full 88 keys too.

I need a MIDI/analog module so I can use the keyboards to control the old Roland SH-1000... someday.

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

oops...missed yer comment y'all slid in there roger! sorry 'bout that! thanks...yeah. i have more things kicking around! i'll post more stuff if ya want...let me know!


yeah vax...the midi component is another whole angle with pc recording. BUT...for york...he really doesn't even need to learn that side of it. but it can be used too AT THE SAME TIME as the audio recording...which is handy. actually, that first thing i did was the ONLY time i've used the midi side of things recording anything. everything else was strictly audio.

york...have you done any research on software or anything yet? let me know what you've found out...also, i probably have some very interesting options for you...:thumbsup:

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

WOW!! Ric...that's pretty cool. What soft ware was that? I don't have keyboards or drums, just my bass and guitars. What should I look at to get started? Does the software do guitar effects? I guess I should go out and get some effect pedals. Let me know, please. Thanks!!!

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

that was cakewalk. i'm not sure what version i was using when i first got into it (that tune has got to be 10 years old anyway), but i think it was cw 7. now that software is called 'sonar'. they changed the name for some reason. prolly because cakewalk is such a stupid name. but sonar??? :headscrat


that is exactly what i have been using. after i did that piece above and one more midi thing with manual hand playing the drums with the computer keyboard (click HERE to hear that one). It's called: Get A Stinkin' Job, another whacked out experimental thingy (sooooo don't take me serious on this one,k?). also, don't mind the huge swings in sonic quality. as you listen to these, you're also hearing my learning curve with producing, which gets better with experience.

i next went to using some drum loops. drum loops are clips/samples of actual drum beats and tracks that you import into a track, and 'loop' as long as you want it to play. you can have more than one in a tune if need be. you can buy them. you can have friends that have a bunch that you can get some off of. (ahem...that could be me :yougo ) ...there's even freebie loops on the net if you look around long enough.

here's two tunes i did using the drum loop method:

the first one is kind of a 'pop' tune i guess...using a couple of drum loop thangs

Why'd Ya Have To Leave


the second one is more prog sounding...again utilizing some looped drum tracks...

Path Of Least Resistance


first thing you need to get is one of the recording software packages, whether it be cubase or sonar or whatever else is out there now. (email or pm me for some other details.)


there is software out there now that does guitar effects. thus far from what i've tried, shakey at best. although my kid brother has just screened a package that's supposed to be really really excellent. (i'll be the judge of THAT! LOL) i actually use a multi effects pedal by korg, that i go line in with. it's worked fine for me. but...with recording, there is ALWAYS something better. new toys.

i'm hoping to get some real drums or a roland electronic kit in the near future. hopefull, the arm comes back enough for me to use them..

anyway....let me know what you think thus far. :rockband:

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

hey york-
o-fficial studio guy here..btw- mackie 824 monitors yesterday!:rawk:

there's a ton of great free/shareware/demos at
www.hitsquad.com/smm

there, you'll find a free copy of pro tools LE, a great sequencer
IF you have the computing power for it. check the minimums.
for a decent free audio recorder/editor-
http://audacity.sourceforge.net i've heard good things about it.

you can also DL the free 8 track version of sony acid
at www.acidplanet.com . you'll find 5-6 free sample loops
w/ each package in the library, plus an "8pack" song file
that changes each week. it's a great way to become aquainted.

as far as guitar software goes, cakewalk makes a cut down version
of Sonar, guitar tracks pro-
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Gui...ro/default.asp
it'll run you a little over $200, check around.
it has efx, amplitube amp sim software bundled, so it's a good bargin.
by comparison, starting w/ Sonar 5 producer will run you around $799.
thank god i've been maintaining my upgrades since cakewalk 5.

one of the hottest pieces of guitar software is Guitar Rig 2-
http://www.native-instruments.com/in...?guitarrig2_us

i don't recommend a soundcard (damned noisy things), go
USB2 connector. tascam, roland, m-audio all make good ones.

i upgraded recently from the rol.ua-100, to the 24bit tascam US-122.

does that help?

kirk

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Hey Kirk,
Are you saying to get something like a hard drive recorder rather than a soundcard? WHen you say noisy, what kind of noise do soundcards generate? I have a WAMI Rack which seems OK, but if there's something better, well, I'll have to get it, you know?

York,
I got into Sonar incrementally, that is, I found the last copy of SOnar 2 a store had for $50.00. Then I upgraded to 3 and then to 4. It beats the $799. Of course, there was also the upgrade from Studio version to producer version (more goodies in the producer version, but you sure can get started with studio versions).

Also, consider the wealth of musical talent here among us! Solicit the help of other players. Being on the internet, you can have a virtual band! I did a tune in MIDI and had a friend in Israel add guitar, another friend in Tx added bass...

Now that I think of it, maybe we can have our own forum...any thoughts?

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

zenpool is a virtual band- one of the most successful to
conquer OMDland, bail for indie radio.
we're now at itunes, toweronline, bestbuyonline, sony direct
and over 40 other P4DL sites.

soundcards are internal devices that raise the noise floor in a recording.
a USB connector bypasses the fans, ect., establishes a connection
w/ the hard drive, acts as an interface like a soundcard.
check these out- http://www.roland.com/products/en/UA-101/specs.html
(i use this one)- http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...eUSB-main.html

i can whole-heartedly recommend Sonar 5.
it's the biggest upgrade from the company i've seen, and
i've been w/ them since Pro Audio 5, 1996 !

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

OMDland? Wassdat?

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Online Music Distribution, such as the defunct Mp3.com.
these are unvetted sites, no restriction on quality.
if you have a computer, can upload a tune, you have a shot at charting.
most force free downloads to be available on the artist's pages.

they're great for when you're starting out, in need of feedback
or a confidence/ego boost. there's over 3000 of them, the largest
is probably www.soundclick.com .

kirk

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Ah, Thanks. I thought we always remain in need of feedback and ego boosts.

:LOL:

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

I just have to add my 2p here since I've been through this struggle before.

When I was composing for my first solo CD I used a Brother Midi Recorder. It had pretty good editing capabilities, but lots of button clicks to get around the menus. However, I used it to control up to 7 devices, which saved me a ton in the Studio of having to not play all the instruments individually one at a time.

So, then I moved into Cakewalk Home Studio. I could import my stored midi files from the Brother onto the PC. Tweaking and editiong became a whole lot better. However, being a drummer first, I did not like the mechanical production of most drum packages. I also could not get the sound I was so used to in my own kit. So I moved up to using Soundfonts, and I sampled my own kit.

This still was not satisfying. And I found myself being more of an editor and less of a composer. Essentially I played for the computer, and not for myself.

Solution: I then bought a Fostex VF160 so I could take it LIVE again. Man am I ever pleased with this option. It does do MIDI as well, but I like best playing my MIDI parts into it, then adding live using good mics and a mixer, and NO COMPUTER. It's portable and lightweight.

The band I'm playing with now is releasing a CD this month, completely recorded on the VF160. The Mastering engineer said it was comparable to a pro studio in production for the type of music we were doing.

Here are a couple of places where you can hear the recordings made on the VF160:

http://www.eccehobo.com/eccehobohome.html
http://home.blarg.net/~markman/demos.html

Hopes this has saved you a few mistakes.

Truthinad

Please visit my product listing page on eBay
TRUTH IN ADVERTISEMENT ~ BALANCE ~ CD Prog / Fusion

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Rob, As A Home recorder on Keyboard I also went thru this. I think Kirk has given you the professional answer and he knows whats what. But we poor shlebs dinosaurs from the Seventies are just home enthusiasts.
Amateurs.
With this in mind I would say the puter adds layers of edits but also layers of more complication. I was happy with my old Sony 4 track reel to reel.
Truth has the ticket. This is a fairly easy machine to use and you will get satisfying results very soon... you can play Bass for me anytime
Here is some Fosgate Info......http://www.zzounds.com/item--FOSVF160EX

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

hey guys-
i started computer recording on a commodore 64 w/ a piano keys
overlay from Toys-R-Us, so don't feel bad.

seeing cakewalk as merely a substitute for a recorder is the
wrong view. it is that, but as sharc mentioned, it's abilities as
an editor is where it shines.

in the umm...olden days, engineers could always be spotted
due to the band-aids covering their hands. edits had to be done
w/ razor blades, scotch taped back together.

i read an interview w/ zappa once, where he mentioned "Apostrophy"
had over 700 splices, tape laid across office chairs.
that lead to the purchase of a very expensive synclavier,
an early sequencer.

the main reason to go to tape, is the "warmth factor" some perceive
as being better from tape saturation. some claim that digital sounds cold
(mainly the guys w/ huge studio equipment investment).
it's roughly the equivolent of vinyl vs. cds.
otherwise, there's no advantage of tape over digital.
both can be played into live, left as raw as desired.

i personally use pres and amps that contain Ax7 tubes to warm
the sound, a common trick these days.
i also have a roland vs-1680 hard disk recorder, should i feel the urge
to try for that "play it live" sound. that's the back of it in the .jpg foreground.

even when starting w/tape (usually 2in.,such as an Otari) almost
all studios port the music to Pro Tools (a high end sequencer)
for editing.
btw TIA- engineers always say that kind of stuff.
you are after all, clients. we want you to return.
if anyone says "i'll fix it in the mix", break into a gallop.:horsepoop

sharc- i'm starting to do 5.1 mixes...i'm going to need a test subject!

kirk

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

There are a few things to consider. I was late coming to music, and I left only to return as of 10 years ago. That means I was not able to develop as a player to the degree I wanted, and as we know, prog is a demanding style. 10 years ago, I traded an old synth for a Roland Sound Canvass Daughterboard, which piggybacked on a sound card. I had no keyboard, so I plotted notes on both, the piano roll and on the staff. This allowed me to write some things I could never play because they were complex. But it was very time consuming, and it was always played precisely by the computer (mechanically). I had to learn to work with MIDI to do that. But writing music live is a different ball of wax. One doesn't want to go through the learning curve of the equipment for that can stiffle creativity. Yet, as a musician learns scales and the mechanics of music, one must learn the mechanics of recording in order to record (or pay studio fees). I have gotten away from the MIDI programming and play more live, which also brings out some different music. But it can be almost as much fun to edit and process what you've played into a somewhat finished product, especially if you find someone else to add other parts.

Cakewalk (Sonar) is indeed better than a reel to reel or cassette in that it will do exactly the same thing- replace your recorder. ANd more.. it will loop a section for you so that you can, if you need to learn a part, just go over it over and over. Once you get that take that works, you delete the rest! There are many more capabilities, but this is just the begining. It's enough just to start there and that makes it better than the old equipment. Whatever you do, start somewhere and go for it!

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

I never bought into the tape thing, I don't care for the hiss either. As far as vinyl vs digital, I have done many A/B tests and found that it's all in the mastering. Listen to some older ELP LPs, then listen to the CDs. That's an example of the labels stepping in and telling the engineers (back when the medium was new) to master the music to be bright so as to seem clear. Well, what that did was cause listener fatigue. Over the years, it snuck up on me. I lost interest in my ELP CDs. Then one day I was playing ELP vinyl. and woa! It wasn't the music that lost my interest. It's how it sounded! This was an extreme difference, many other CDs were less different. I bought Stravinsky's Firebird CD and a direct to disc record from 1978 (which was also recorded digitally). There was hardly any difference. Matter of fact, I prefer the CD. The record seemed to have dust, and that bothered me. When I played the CD, the "dust" turned out to be the musicians' chairs creeking! But the dynamics sounded better on the CD also.

Ah, intentional distortion! What's funny here, is that the distortion for tubes (or valves, as our Brit buds call them) is higher than for solid state. But tubes distort even order harmonics, while transistors don't. Or ears tolerate even order harmonic distortion better than the distortion all over the place of solid state devices.

Kirk, have you discovered the formula: Klipsch + tubes = euphoria?

I can't say I heard a 5.1 (other than for special effects) recoring I liked. You are either placed in the middle of the band or the orchestra hall. When I have been at concerts, the band was always to the front of me, so to me, 2 channel is the more realistic presentation. But, I suppose I am subject to be changed if I hear the right mix...

Andy

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Buy an Apple computer and get iLife 6. Garageband can do anything.

http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

while I'm a huge mac fan, my complaints about Garageband are that it can't deal with time signature and tempo changes. at least this is the case in GB 2. I haven't upgraded to GB 3 yet. did they make this possible?
I've thought about moving up to Logic Express, because without the ability to do meter changes, GB just won't cut it... it's prog, after all! :D

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

good point roger! IMO- garageband is great for non-musicians, kids,
hobbyists to do music-like production, background for websites, ect.


Logic is a great choice. it's upgradable as need be, the efx are
incredible, unique to the program.
the user custom defines the program (environments) to suit.

you qualify for educational discounts-
(stupid teachers get all the breaks,eh?:shootmeno )

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...utingpage.html

p e a c e :-V

kirk

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

yeah, I'd get a discount, and the price is very good, but it'll have to wait until the divorce is over.... 8-o

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

update to my progress......OK,bought a Yamaha E303 keyboard (I like), some stands, cords, an Audix OM2 mic, Gear Box Line 6 Monkey Hardware w/ Live Lite 4. I just upgraded to Ableton Live 5. I already have an Ibanez Acoustic guitar, a Ritchie Sambora model Stratocaster and a Fender Jazz bass. I'M BROKE and in trouble. Anyway, I'm overwhelmed with the reality of my need to learn, what the heck I'm doing. I'm doing allot of reading and tutorials with some interface. I really want to do all I need on the front end, so I can enjoy the back end. (nothing dirty here) What little human interface I've had has shown me that 2 MIDI notes sure can do allot. I played my acoutic with a touch of flange and reverb......it was sweet sounding. I've done a couple of drum patterns......and they all sucked. I'm having problems syncing my audio recordings......SO, as I said, I've resorted to the learning path first. Any familiararity of Live 5 advice will be appreciated. PLEASE!!! NO, it SUCKS!! comments. I don't think I could take the financial disappointment. I was VERY impressed with the program.

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

wow..."the journey of a thousand steps" has begun.

there's no magic bullet, no "decrapinator" plugin.
you have to learn to work within your limits, be happy w/ one phase,
move to the next. it's not easy. if it were, everyone would be doing it.
after you've become adept w/ the software, you're still only as good as
your talent and artistic vision takes you.
i had the ableton demo for awhile, couldn't get my head around it.
since this is your entry point, maybe it'll be different for you.

tip #1- record drums in midi, not audio. quantize the track
to taste. the quantize function aligns the notes to the nearest
chosen resolution, usually quarter notes to triple 32nds.

have fun, be patient, don't be afraid to experiment. they all have
"undo" buttons. above all-leave the credit card at home if you visit
guitar center's pro audio/keys dept.:winkies:

p e a c e

kirk

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Kirk, Based on what I'm seeing and doing......YOU are RIGHT ON, Sir!! Ya know, I kinda rushed into putting my first thoughts down, last night. I did a drum midi, acoustic rhythm, 2 keyboard chord patterns and a lead guitar. It was pretty cool, this song has been on my mind since the 70's........uh?....It sounded like it too.:rofl: Anyway, I will keep working with this first song section until I like it....AND.....I get used to playing my guitars again. I haven't played on ANY regular basis since 1978. Today I worked with my 4 yr. old g-daughter and recorded her singing over midi samples. It was good practice for me and more familiarization with the program. This is now and is going to keep on getting more inspiring. I'm having FUN....again.:) So, thanks for the advice and keep the tips flowing. Your input has been much appreciated. Thanks, Rob

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

"tales of the jellybean frog"?:eeeek

y'know rob, i wouldn't have started you off w/ableton live.
it's a great program, originally conceived as a DJ aid, allowing them
to insert parts on the fly, during performance (hence the "live").

your call, but i think it'd go much faster for you if you used a
program that functions more in the traditional "tape machine" sense,
w/ heavier editing capabilities. the learning curve's much smaller.
there's a free 8 track version of acid at www.acidplanet.com.
the miracle of this program is the way it auto-syncs "acidized" files.
you merely line up the tabs, and you're in sync.
there's also a free DL of a monthly "8pack" to experiment on.

it wouldn't be much of a diversion to check it out, and i have a feeling
you'll be glad you did.

kirk

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

Kirk....don't get me all upset now.....I "ignorantly" spent all this $$ on Live 5, so......it better do what I want as I'm now forced to use it. Having said that, I will look into Acid Planet. What I'm finding with Live 5 is that much of the program is effects, so after with playing with all that now, I can go back and focus on what I need. A guy at work told me to watch my mixing, due to the different outcome on different playing devices. He was right! I mixed my one project through my Tone Port and headphones, then played it back through my computer. BIG DIFFERENCE!! Too much bass, too much effects on some tracks, etc. .......Hey! Bottom line..it's fun! I am realizing my playing limitations too.:sad: I've got to get back up to par, so it's instrument practice for me as well. It's all good!!! I guess my biggest problem is all the excitement I have about it...........it's hard to contain and thus, I create my own frustrations. :aua: BUT!!! AGAIN!!! It's all good and I get allot of satisfaction from it too. Keep the advice and insight coming......much appreciated.

Re: Looking for advice...Home Computer Instrument Recording???
 

for starters, those efx are VST and/or DXi, so they're compatible w/
any windows based program, including acid and sonar as of the latest versions.
that alone makes it worth having.
the programs profile efx in the system, make them available.

re:mixing- how we watch our mixing is called monitoring.;)
the mix is only as good as what we listen w/.
wait until you take the mix to your car stereo!=8^O

even upper end $200+ headphones are not accurate for mixing.
commercial stereo speakers are "colorized" or enhanced at
certain frequencies, so ditto. it is nice to monitor final mixes on
home speakers, so you can tell what the listeners will hear.
you're eventually going to need a pair of nearfields.
there's some decent ones under $200 if you put in the research.
i started w/ yorkville ysm1s, a steal at the price-
http://www.musiciansbuy.com/YORKVILL..._MON_EACH.html

i recently invested in a pair of these-
http://www.mackie.com/products/studi...ors/index.html
..the 824's on the L. listening to my older mixes, i wish i'd of made
the move sooner.8-o

i can relate to finding musical limitations. i push myself whenever
i begin to feel comfortable. in the process, i've leaned percussion,
the flute, and now i'm sputtering into the chapman stick.

one cool thing that's happened, is the advent of soft synths.
you can add the arturia moogs, garritan strings for around $200,
as compared to buying hardware versions, control them w/ a lowend
midi keyboard. http://www.arturia.com/en/minimoog/minimoogv.php

i have these, and i'm in love w/ the absynth 3, a sound designer's dream.
http://www.arbitermt.co.uk/ni/products/absynth3.htm

kirk