I love it...
 

I ask ya, where else will you hear Ray Lynch followed by Queen?

Yeah, that's what I'M talking about.

Thanks so much for this site, guys.

Nice to know!
 

Welcome to the WONDERFUL world of AM spedblavio!

Always good to get a new discussion going SO>>>>>>>>>>>

QUEEN PROG???? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!

Over to you guys. Take it away...........

Okay, I'll bite. Queen seems to be one of those "kinda sorta" bands like Dream Theater and Queensryche that, while a few individual tracks might be proggy, the band as a whole doesn't fit under the moniker.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less proggy Queen really is. Besides "Bohemian Rhapsody," I can't think of anything else that fits. (Don't cite those ponderous early mini-epics like "Seven Seas of Rhye" or whatever. If you go that far, then we have to include Blackmore's Rainbow, early Styx, and God knows what else.)

you know i'll bite
 

I am not ashamed to admit that I like music considered top-40. I grew up on Yes, Tull, Giant, Crimson, etc. But I still like Styx, Supertramp, Kiss, etc. And, I still love "metal" (Maiden, Sabbath, Priest, and the like).

The reason I get on this soapbox is that there seems to be a want to call the great hard rock of the 70's prog. Queen, Kansas, Tull, Rush, The Who, Zep, ELP - my favorite bands-

NOT PROG!!!!

Not even the 80's stuff - King's X, Queensryche - NOT PROG!

If you only gave me 100 CD's to listen to, probably a good number would be comprised of the above. Or, it would be a good portion of the underrepresented genre, Fusion. But for crying out loud, stop calling 70's rock prog!

I mean even Ambrosia gets played on this station. I really like their first two or three releases, but it's not prog.

Reserve the term PROG for the bands like Flower Kings, Anekdoten, too numerous to mention!

As the great Ian Gillian said, NO NO NO.

How's that for ridin' the fence?

Let me check your list and give you my opinion Keith:

Queen: Except 1 or 2 songs, NOT PROG'
Kansas: Until Leftoverture PROG' after Point of Know Return mainly NOT PROG.
Jethro Tull: Prog, Blues, Rock, Folk, Rock and even Pop depending on the album.
Rush: Not Prog' probably Hard/Classic Rock
The Who: 100% Not Prog', except MAYBE for Quadrophenia, but it's one of my favourite bands.
ELP: 100% Progressive, please remember Karn Evil 9, Tocatta, The Enemy God..., Trilogy, Tarkus, etc. Of course they have some cheese (Love Beach, Works II and In the Hot Seat), but a genuine progressive band.
Led Zeppelin: NOT PROG' great hard rock band.

But I agree with you in the concept, I hate when people say that bands like Journey, Supertramp, Asia, Rush or Styx are Prog', it's not I dislike them, but we can't call them prog'.

Iván

Despite many's opinion, I have a hard time not thinking of Queen as prog.

I can't listen to Bohemian Rhapsody and think... hmmm, yeah, that's not progressive. Their early stuff is also very progressive.

Now, is Another One Bites the Dust progressive - proibably not, but neither is a lot of pop stuff from Genesis, Rush and Yes.

Avian

Agree with you Avian Bohemian Rhapsody sounds prog', it's one of the two songs I mention in my post, but IMO Queen is not a Prog' Band.

Avian said:
Early Genesis is my all time favourite band, but aren't ABACAB (With Earth Wind & Fire), Invissible Touch, Genesis (Shapes), We Can't Dance, etc a full collection of soft pop songs? I also believe ATTWT and Duke are mainly Pop, but those two at least have a couple of good songs. So, Genesis does have a lot of POP stuff.

I believe most Yes albums with Rabin are POP, not as soft and boring as Genesis but 90125, Big Generator and most Union are simply POP.

Rush is not a pop band IMO, a good classic rock band but neither is prog.

But it's only my opinion and maybe I'm wrong.

Iván

???
 

Geez, Ivan, then what is prog?

As for all these bands that that are on the station like Journey, Ambrosia, Toto, Queen, Supertramp, Styx, and others, I don't think that anyone considers these bands progressive in their entirety. The issue in building a playlist is simple.

First, if it's a classically cited "prog band," like Yes or Rush, you have to put everything they ever did on the station, unless it's just so unquestionalbly not prog that there is no debate. In that sense, I think that all Rush should be on the station except their first album, and all Yes should be on the station (etc., ad nauseum).

Secondly, for any band that is not a "prog band" like Yes or KC or Floyd or Genesis, you have to look at individual songs. If you asked Jim, who is ultimately responsible for the library, "is Journey a prog band? How about Queen?", I believe he'd honestly say "no." But just because a band is not progressive on the whole doesn't mean that they don't have a few prog songs (Queen) or even a lot (Journey).

For instance, let's look at INVISIBLE TOUCH. I don't see any reason for the songs "Invisible Touch," "Throwing It All Away," "In Too Deep," and "Anything She Does" to be on a prog station. However, no prog station would be complete without "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight," "Land of Confusion," "Domino," or "The Brazillian."

Ultimately, my point is, if every single Led Zeppelin song was added to AM, I'd wonder about the direction of the station. However, I would have no problem with, and in fact lobby for, the addition of about five Zep songs, like "Achilles Last Stand," "Caroselambra," "Kashmir," and "In the Light." If gobs of Grand Funk Railroad were on AM, something's amiss, but if the ONE SONG "Closer to Home/I'm Your Captain were added, I think it could only improve the station.

Now, after adding my two cents, I'm going to go request Journey's "With A Tear."

I would agree that the idea is to find prog music, not necessariy to identify prog bands. it's entirely possible that some of those bands have brought people into the prog camp, by enticing them with pop/prog blends. (I expect that's what happened with me!) :cool:

Nice job, Yesspaz
 

said very nicely. A nicely-crafted argument. The written word is sometimes difficult to convey the point of a discussion - my humble stance (and timid glance) is that there is no need to make the 70's Kings of Rock & Roll progressive in their entirety.

Roger, nice point about the enticement angle. King Crimson was my crossover band.

Ivan, please don't blame EW&F for the Abacab record. It's no secret Phil Collins loves Motown, and that was his push during that period. Especially his solo stuff, very-Motown influenced. So, it goes back even farther than EW&F. I think Rutherford & Banks share in the blame, too. They got lazy. Of course it's not even on the radar screen with the earlier Genesis (yes, even ATTWT & Duke, those records are solid), but still a worthwhile effort.

Include in the prog "Fading Lights" off WCD, too.

That's absolutely true Roger, there are many non Prog' bands that had some prog albums like:

The Who: Quadrophenia and maybe Tommy
Rolling Stones: Their Satanic Majesties Request
Uriah Heep: The Magician's Birthday and Look at Yourself.

I never blamed EW&F RICK (Sorry for the mistaken name), I blamed Genesis, Motown is OK (for those who like it), but you can't mix two bands so diferent and with such opposite styles. Genesis was still considered a prog' band and EW&F was one of the most commercial bands in the market. In this case I blame Phil, because Tony Banks wanted to make the horns with his synth, but Phil insisted to include EW&F, they agreed to admit them in one song only.

I don't think they got lazy, I believe Phil and Mike Rutherford were always POP oriented, remember the main contribution from Mike in W&W was "Your Own Special Way" which IMO is almost as boring as More Fool Me and later Genesis stufff; and Tony left them include more POP stuff in order to save Genesis and earn some big bucks.

Iván

PS: Just saw your reply Yesspaz, and your opinion is valid, but I still think Journey music is not prog' , they have great stuff, but music doesn't need to be prog' in order to be good, and about Invissible Touch, honestly I hate it from the first to the last note.

It's hard for an old dog to learn new tricks, I listen Gabriel Genesis since I was 13, and I can't accept that the same band that created Fountain of Salmacis and Musical Box could ever release Invissible Touch or Shapes. That's why I'm so hard with Genesis, because I love their early stuff so much.

You da Man, Yesspaz
 

Once again, I agree totally with Yesspaz. Well put!!

Ivan, I understand exactly how you feel about Genesis since it is how I feel about Rush. Great and progressive early stuff but very disapointing later (although Vapour Trails was a pleasant surprise).

Avian and Jim: Love hearing prog stuff from bands not considered prog. It gives them depth that I didn't think they had.

disappointments, In a Rush
 

Most bands just plain wear out - the list is endless -

Kansas after Monolith (although a nice rebound on Freaks and Elsewhere). Queen after Jazz. Giant after Missing Piece. Yes in the 80's (another good recovery). Police. Judas Priest. Gong (PM's). Genesis. Aerosmith. Floyd. Saga, etc.....

I'll keep defending Counterparts and Test For Echo - really solid efforts.

The Power Windows to Roll The Bones period was very arid for Rush (even in concert). I still can't get past the muddy sound and the Alex grunge of Vapor Trails. Plus the song structure is disjointed in places. Great live shows, though!

Rush is easily my second-favorite band, after Tull. I always thought that even in their very heavy days, they were way ahead of the curve, and a very clean sounding band. Maybe in 20 years I'll be saying the same thing about Vapor Trails, but for now, they seem to have fallen behind the curve.

A worn out Rush
 

I've noticed the same things with older bands, Rick, but was hoping that Rush would be immune to it. I agree with you regarding Counterparts which, IMO, was their strongest effort since Signals. Lots of fresh ideas, lyrically and musically, that seemed to work. I am not so warm to Test For Echo.

Regarding Vapor Trails, maybe it is the overwhelming sense of optimism in the lyrics and how I relate it to Neil's tragedies and the healing that he went through that makes me so fond of this effort. Having said that I also understand your complaints of their new sound. I, personally, don't like the sound of a Telecaster, which was the guitar of choice for this recording. But I also think that Alex had so many ideas that he threw out and, for whatever reason, Geddy Lee was unable to piece it together in as coherent a fashion as before. His bass playing, on the other hand, is outstanding throughout.

Rush reply
 

My 15-year old loves TFE, and I can't get him to listen to Counterparts yet. I almost agree with the strongest since Signals, but Grace Under Pressure is awesome.

Speaking of Neil - have you read the Ghost Rider book he did? Is it a worthwhile fathers day present from my family to me? My oldest son also checked out Merely Players from the library, and that seems to be another choice.

Your explanation of the Telecaster makes me think I need to listen to the CD again. I think I got turned off initially by the sound because I thought, oh no not Rush getting grungy too! I'll give it a another shot.

New Rush generation
 

So neat to hear stories about our kids getting into the music that we love. My 11 year old son loves Counterparts especially the angry bass on the opening tack. He also likes Permanent Waves. My 2 nieces, 10 and 12 years old, surprised me by saying that they love Freewill and Necromancer! Those are priceless gifts.

Regarding his new book, I have not read it but I heard mixed reviews. I think that as a Rush fan that it would be good reading although his other book, the Masked Rider, was a bit of a disppointment. I was turned off by how much he complained about some of the other riders. The real touching part was at the end of the book when he described how nice it was to meet his wife in Paris knowing that his wife died shortly after.

>>>King Crimson was my crossover band.

KC and Yes brought me into the fold. Before that I thought Black Sabbath, GFRR, and (god help me) Black Oak Arkansas were happenin', with-it bands. "Close to the Edge" took me to a new place, and "USA" tore my head off and put it back on askew. (The USA album was the first album I ever heard my mom characterize as "devil music." But to give her her due, she liked "Tales from Topographic Oceans.")

My 15-year old stepson likes Djam Karet, KC, and Pink Floyd, along with the usual Rammstein/Insane Clown Posse dreck. Unfortunately, he has recently developed an obsession for "99 Red Balloons" in all of its thousand incarnations. If I hear that song one more time, someone's going to jail.

A new category...
 

Perhaps we prog fans simply need a new category to destinguish those bands/songs/albums that skate on the edge of the prog lake, without the courage or conviction to head straight for the thin ice out in the middle and risk falling into the cold depths of mediocrity, obscurity, or--heaven forbid--unmarketability.

My suggestion is to refer to such works like later Genesis (and Yes), Supertramp, Asia, Queen, BOC, etc. as Prog Lite.

Prog Lite - (prŏg' lît'). adj. : 1. an example of music from a progressive artist that does not measure up to their standard progressive offerings. " 'Owner of a Lonely Heart' is Prog Lite." 2. an example of progressive music from an artist that is not usually progressive. "Supertramp's 'Fool's Overture' is remarkably Prog Lite." 3. sl. a possibly derogatory term that refers to someone of something that does not perform to usual standards. "Your mamma's cooking was really Prog Lite this evening." "My girlfriend was really Prog Lite last night in bed."

Maybe this can provide the focal point we need to continue this endless debate.

With that said, the mention of Rainbow earlier inspired me to make a possibly heinous request. I personally feel that 2 Rainbow songs, "Stargazer" and "A Light In The Black," might fit well here at AM. They both have some killer keyboard parts (and Dio used to be an opera singer!).

So here's to Prog Lite: tastes great AND less filling!

Prog Lite!
 

Excellent observation Powerslave!!!!!

oh no here we go again
 

Powerslave, you should recognize that reference as Dio from "Neon Knights". Very interesting about the Rainbow references. Stargazer I can see, but A Light In the Black is just a tune with a long jam in the middle. And Fools Overture is just a bloated tune - at least 5 minutes of it is just background stuff.

Please, please, PLEASE promise never to mention Asia with any of the above bands.

BOC is an interesting reference. A lot of prog-type qualities, but still just a rock & roll band. And a damn good one too. Still very good live, too.

Your definitions 1 and 2 are total opposites - I am still scratching my head over that. I may never figure it out!

I happen to think Iron Maiden is much more progressive than those ordained prog-rock metal bands like Ice Age. But as I've said over and over, I have no particular hankering to hear it on Aural Moon (but you could request Seventh Son of A Seventh Son and I wouldn't complain).

Any finally, I feel that Black Sabbath (from Paranoid to Heaven & Hell inclusive) is a very progressive band. Especially the Sabbath Bloody to Never Say Die period. Any hey, isn't that Wakeman and Don Airey on keyboards?

Keep it coming - I find this topic interesting (even though the vast majority will find it exasperating).

A lot of metal bands did tracks that would slide in under the "progressive" door. Someone mentioned GFRR's "Closer to Home." Black Sabbath did quite a few: "Planet Caravan," "The Writ," "Symptom of the Universe," "Wheels of Confusion," and others that escape me for the moment. (Wakeman did session work on the Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath album, and I think Don Airey shows up on some later tracks as well.) There are a lot of other examples, I just can't think of any at the moment. Deep Purple did quite a few.

I was at a seminar about teaching English to middle schoolers when one of the presenters, a jolly, square-faced middle-aged lady in flowery polyester pants, began talking about using bands like Judas Priest to teach poetry (this was in the '80s). Her son was a big Priest/Maiden fan and she had heard enough of it to realize that there was a lot of solid lyrical content in the music. So here we are, a room full of teachers, most older than me and very straight-laced, listening to Rob Halford howl and grunt and talking about his lyrics. She was very sincere (and very good), but the whole situation just cracked me up. I've yet to sic Priest on my kids, but I've used a lot of ambient music as writing prompts with good success, especially some of the spacey, moody Eno material.

metal gods
 

I was always able to look past the hilarious campy posturing - "would you like to see the pope at the end of a rope" (Ozzy) is outright side-splitting. I just think the music by Sabbath, early-mid Priest, Maiden, Budgie, Voivod, etc. is just outstanding stuff. Categorize away, it matters little to me. Very refreshing to hear your story of the English class. It's a hell of a lot better than a trial for suicide!

Maybe we'd do better just talking about songs that belong on AM's playlist ("Closer to Home," yes, "Footstompin' Music," no).

Footstompin Music!
 

I always thought that title was funny - the visual is priceless.

Try signing Some Kind of Wonderful while drunk.

...
 

Try singing Some Kind of Wonderful sober! What a bad song. You'd have to be drunk to dig it.

I liked the idea of inventing a title for "less-than-par" prog from prog bands (BIG GENERATOR) and suprisingly progressive material from more mainstream artists (first three Journey albums). However, I hate the term "Prog-Lite." It sounds very demeaning to me. The term I always use describing music to my friends that fits this category is "proggish."

Example: "Have you heard the last album Jimmy Eat World did before they got on MTV? You know, CLARITY? It's really good melodic pop-rock with a lot of good hooks and incredible vocal harmonies, good lyrics too, and the last song is actually pretty proggish if you ask me."

See? Isn't that nice? :cool: By this definition, I'd consider "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight," "The Brazillian," and "Domino" as Prog, but "The Land of Confusion" as proggish.




BTW, Vapor Trails rules.

surprisingly?
 

If Journey (a band I never was into) on their first few releases were considered prog, how is that surprising? I thought they had "prog" bloodlines. The mainstream happened later. I think our order is reversed here.

If it was their later stuff that was prog, that would be surprising. Work with me here.

Asia was mentioned earlier in this post in the same breath as some of the great bands. In the same vein, please don't call anything off Big Generator prog. I like most of the stuff, but any resemblance to prog is purely coincidential, and done to protect the innocent. Same with 90125. The last cut of each - maybe.

Come to think of it, I think we waste way too much time on 80's output from great 70's bands. It's almost as though we wish it to be good.

It's a shame to see so many Good Prog. Bands go down the tubes.

Bardens left Camel for Van Morrison. He said it was too much work.

Rush (I was never a big Rush Fan) releasing Roll The Bones? Rush was good for Prog. in the fact they crossed rock'n rollers over.

Yes surviving by releasing short single hits.

How does Kansas go from Journey From Meriabronn to Vinyl Confessions?

Genesis from Foxtrot to Invisible Touch???

Even ELP's Later CD's has songs I deleted from my music library (Like Black Moon).

In the Old days, Prog. bands broke up only to form new Prog bands, now they just turn Rock or even worse (Like Genesis) Pop!
When you get used to making big bucks it makes you want more at any cost. Do you really thing that they thought they are bringing their musical talents to a new level and expanding their musical horizons. No! They sold out and got lazy! We are too small of an audience to garner the attention of the record companies that runs the money machine. So why put out the effort composing arranging and practicing complicated musical scores when you can just tap out a 4/4 ditty, write some meaningless words (we will exclude Yes from that comment hehe) and have a hit single.

For good Prog., you can't look at the big names you need to look for the new names.
There is one thing I like about being a poor, mediocre musician. No one asks me to compromise my integrity in my music.

So when looking at who is a prog band and who has just done some prog songs...Might I suggest that Genesis is a Pop band that did some good Prog songs way back when....;)

Argon Steps down off his soapbox

Nicely said!
 

Nice, nice, very nice.

Completely agree with the look toward newer bands.

On that note, check out The Appleseed Cast.

Reason for genres. = So that you can find what you like easyer.

Therefore you need to be album-specific rather than band-specific genres damnit.

Powerslaves idea makes my head short-circuit. I allready have a hard time keeping up with the terms. If you are to make more terms to find your music easyer you need to define them better.

Or better yet, skip that whole idea and log on to the net find a discussionboard like this one and ask "Can you help me find music that have that and that property?" where one is very likely to get a reply "I would recomend that and that for those properties. And try that too just for kicks." And then you say "Thanks!" and go request mentioned bands for airing at Auralmoon to see if you might want to buy it.
:)

And i think it's somewhat silly to let genrename dictate what is the best music for you. :rolleyes: I like Queens movie music very much.

dong Dong DOng DONg DONG - FLASH! AAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

question
 

What is your perspective being in Sweden on the Flower Kings? I will see them both in a large setting and an intimate setting next month, and saw them at a bar last year. They are just incredible.

Can you tell me a little about how they are perceived there?

Thanks!

P.S. Nice use of the word damnit.

Re: question
 

Thank you.

I am afraid i can't really give you a qualified answer to the question about The flower kings. I pretty much have secluded myself from public opinion the last years. But i think that even if Flower Kings is a bandname most swedes have heard few know or care what they play. "The flower kings? I don't know, just an old band." Sort of. I don't think that many are even aware that they are Swedish.

I remember what i thought about them myself before i found progrock, (and hence got more familiar with who they were and what they play.) "The flower kings? Everyone seems to know about that old band but yet you don't get the feel that it is a big famous classic. Strange."