Black Sabbath...

[Methem]

Sabbath's music in general isn't the type that should be played here much, but is it possible to have some individual pieces from their albums on the station's playlist? Would for example Fluff, Spiral Architect (Sabbath Bloody Sabbath), The Writ (Sabotage), and Air Dance (Never Say Die) be suitable material? All of these are from the 1970s; I cannot comment on the band's later production, as I'm not familiar with it at all.

Some of the older posts here seem to have mentioned the band from time to time, so obviously this is not a totally new thing.

But anyway... just a loose suggestion, and nothing more.

-Methem

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Methem
Sabbath's music in general isn't the type that should be played here much, but is it possible to have some individual pieces from their albums on the station's playlist? Would for example Fluff, Spiral Architect (Sabbath Bloody Sabbath), The Writ (Sabotage), and Air Dance (Never Say Die) be suitable material? All of these are from the 1970s; I cannot comment on the band's later production, as I'm not familiar with it at all.

Some of the older posts here seem to have mentioned the band from time to time, so obviously this is not a totally new thing.

But anyway... just a loose suggestion, and nothing more.

-Methem

Methem you have hit on a subject near and dear to my beliefs. Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, and select others are progressive. Hands down. It's the style of music that has the typical prog fan howling. They are as progressive in their style as a band like Tarentel is in theirs, and certainly more prog than a band like Queen.

By demand, I played The Who on my show. It was received very well. From time to time, I think bands like these are welcome. Sometimes I will play a band that I think has prog leanings but am reminded I am wrong (Depeche Mode was one that most likely will not be repeated). But I try. And most of what I play is prog or "prog-like).

Now let's discuss Sabbath in detail. Just to get it out of the way, "Fluff" is just OK and nothing special, just a diversion. However, everything else on "Sabbath Bloody", "Sabotage", "Technical Ecstacy", and "Never Say Die" have incredible depth. You mentioned "The Writ" and "Spiral Architect" and "Air Dance". All of these tunes are excellent, but all also contain mellow or keyboard in places (Air Dance featured prominently).

I submit you stick to your guns on this Methem. The heavier selections are just as worthy as the ones tinged with mellow spots.

To summarize, to me the first four Sabbath are straight ahead rock (but no more than Queen I is compared to the rest of Queen). The next four are prog hard rock (a lot more than a band like Pain of Salvation or OSI IMHO).

The Dio Sabbath is quality rock. Kevishev may disagree with me, but "Heaven And Hell" is almost universally enjoyed by every prog fan I've met. I was 17 when it came out, and trust me, as a high school/college student, that and KC "Discipline" blew away all else.

Bands get stuck in these labels, and Sabbath was one. They were a bluesy as Tull was when they started (Tony Iommi almost joined Tull). Say what you want about Ozzy, or some of the tunes, but the music is not AC/DC or bands like that. It's quality and prog.

All that being said, I would rather see the Sabbath rather than snippets. As stated, the entire 5-8 records are all worthy.

I think I'll feature them on a show. I've got a few others to get to, but I like this idea. Hearing 10-20 tunes would provide a good cross-section and certainly initiate discussion.

Of course I'm biased, as others are, but the listener who is truly not familiar with their output may have a fresh opinion. That's the target audience, in my view.

Good post Methem!

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
Methem you have hit on a subject near and dear to my beliefs. Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, and select others are progressive. Hands down. It's the style of music that has the typical prog fan howling. They are as progressive in their style as a band like Tarentel is in theirs, and certainly more prog than a band like Queen.

Well, I have to disagree here. I think Queen is far more progressive than Iron Maiden, who I don't find progressive at all. Black Sabbath is a consideration, as I agree there's some depth to their music. The problem is, I don't own any! There's some not so great reasons for that, and I'll likely amend that at some point soon. I may ask you for some more guidance on this when I'm ready, Rick.

One other point that may or may not apply here: whenever some music is prog mixed with another style, there's the possibility that the other style is so distinct that it's almost impossible for the prog to be apparent to my ears. Blues is a good example - I love the blues, but I have not really heard anything that I would call progressive blues, with the exception of two Scott Henderson albums I may add one of these days. Metal/hard rock is sort of the same way for me.

To go off on a Tangent, bell peppers have the same effect for me in food. I'm lukewarm on them, but whenever they're in a dish they're all I can taste, so I steer clear of them...

SO, that's a hell of a long winded "maybe"

[Rick and Roll]

no need to be ready....I'll do a show in say, March sometime so you can get a sample.

I was probably going overboard when I called Maiden prog. I should amend that to say they are the best at their craft.

[Yesspaz]

Oh, the old "Not a prog band but they have a few prog songs" debate. I'm down, but the only problem is that if the definition is stretched enough, EVERY artist has a prog song. "Open the Floodgates," as it were. I can make an argument for at least 2 songs off every Journey album, easily agreeing that most is straight AOR. Same for Foreigner and Boston and Guns N Roses. Why not "Estranged," "Civil War," and "November Rain" from the Use Your Illusion albums? I'm not actually making a case for them - rather pointing out the reasoning for certain Sabbath can be applied elsewhere ad-nauseum.

[Rick and Roll]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Yesspaz
Oh, the old "Not a prog band but they have a few prog songs" debate. I'm down, but the only problem is that if the definition is stretched enough, EVERY artist has a prog song. "Open the Floodgates," as it were. I can make an argument for at least 2 songs off every Journey album, easily agreeing that most is straight AOR. Same for Foreigner and Boston and Guns N Roses. Why not "Estranged," "Civil War," and "November Rain" from the Use Your Illusion albums? I'm not actually making a case for them - rather pointing out the reasoning for certain Sabbath can be applied elsewhere ad-nauseum. [/quote]

I couldn't disagree more. It's not that debate at all. It's an inquiry by Methem, and well-phrased and concise (not my strong suit). In fact, I was trying to steer the subject clear of only adding selected cuts (as stated in my post). "Fluff" is not more prog-worthy than "A National Acrobat", but "Fluff" is included for discussion I think by Methem because it's different than their usual fare. "A National Acrobat" is very prog - but, it is consistently heavy - and that turns off a lot of people.

Really, I'd like to steer clear of this debate. I'll do a show in March and we maybe can bandy it about then. Jim says at some point he may be amenable to listening to some and thinking about it. That's about all we can ask.

By the way I heard a song off the "Ladder" today...and if I didn't know it was Yes, I'd wonder how it got in the library. It was a nice tune but Air Supply could have sung it (really). That's why I don't generally try to go tune by tune. I'd rather look at a band's body of work, and take album by album. I also mentioned Sabbath's first four should probably NOT fit on the Moon. But albums 5-8 CAN. That doesn't mean there's not some prog moments on "Paranoid" (record 2). "War Pigs" is a Progressive tune. "Electric Funeral" is not. But in general the record is not prog enough.

Finally, you put "Air Dance" and "Civil War" and "Starrider" to the "PROG TEST" and "Air Dance" wins every time. There's no debate there. The latter two are just good tunes by non-prog bands. "Civil War" is not any more proggy than "Welcome To The Jungle". It's just a song with a few more twists and turns.

I'm looking forward to this. You'd be surpised with some of the tracks on "Sabotage" and "Never Say Die". Yeah, maybe in a few weeks even (I'm getting excited)......

[Yesspaz]

Um... Ok. I know Methem was simply making an inquiry. I'm not out to restart that debate. I'm just pointing out the ideaology that appears every so often. All I'm saying is that Metallica is quite "progressive" at times too - long extended songs with key changes and rhythm changes drawn from classical. They do a version of Mars by Holst, ala King Crimson. My point is that most talented bands in rock have a few prog songs. And the idea of four whole BS albums on the Moon seems odd to me. I think for those songs that you so eloquently call "tweeners," they have to be considered song by song, not by a body-of-work and album basis. Take Zeppelin. I think there are easily a dozen songs that could and should be on AM. But any one album as a whole? No way. What one LZep album would you put on the Moon? There's not one. And if there are, say, two songs on "In Through the Out Door" that should be added, would you exclude them because you can't add "Fool in the Rain"? I'd say no. Song by song on tweeners, not "pick an album." I've used this example elsewhere: Genesis' Invisible Touch album. I think four of the eight should be on any prog station - Tonight, Tonight, Tonight; The Brazilian, Land of Confusion, and Domino. The other four songs are pure pop. (BTW, this argument can't be made for 80s Yes, KC, Tull, etc., because while it's decidedly poppy, it is definitely Prog-Pop.) So should ALL Genesis be on? Nah. Should ALL Black Sabbath be off? Nah. But you got to put more effort into it than picking an album. (Man thi is way off from where I started...).

PS, I didn't mention Starrider. I mentioned Foreigner. That means you thought of Starrider on your own, so something proggy clicked there?!!

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
All I'm saying is that Metallica is quite "progressive" at times too - long extended songs with key changes and rhythm changes drawn from classical. They do a version of Mars by Holst, ala King Crimson.

PS, I didn't mention Starrider. I mentioned Foreigner. That means you thought of Starrider on your own, so something proggy clicked there?!!

Metallica is great (early). Not prog no way. "One'" maybe. Metallica covers a lot of things. Doesn't mean it's prog. Have you heard the Korn version of "Brick In The Wall"? Not prog.

You mentioned Starrider on a number of occasions! Not in this thread. that's where I got it from

[Methem]

Thanks for the feedback, people. And surprisingly positive feedback, I should add... Though of course I somehow knew I could count on at least you in this issue, Rick.

To be honest, I don't actually listen to Sabbath much these days. Those two pieces -- Spiral Architect and The Writ -- however, have been in my mind for a while now, as something that could perhaps well be played here on the station. Therefore I also decided to go through some of my CDs from the band a couple of days ago, in order to refresh the memory about some of the other pieces on them. And this resulted in my suggestion, which of course could have mentioned more than just four pieces...

I think it would be nice to get at least a few well-selected pieces on the playlist in the future, preferably the more mellow and melodic stuff. Adding whole Sabbath albums probably isn't appropriate, given that a part of that material in all of those albums (at least from the 1970s) is indeed a little bit too ... hard and obviously not really "progressive" (whatever the term in its most puristic sense eventually means).

As for Fluff... well, it's instrumental and relatively pretty. Probably nothing really special or "progressive" though, that's true. Another such piece is, for example, Laguna Sunrise on Vol 4.

And then there is of course this simple but beautiful ballad, Solitude (Master of Reality)... with Bill Ward (I think) in vocals.

-Methem

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally posted by progdirjim
Well, I have to disagree here. I think Queen is far more progressive than Iron Maiden, who I don't find progressive at all. Black Sabbath is a consideration,

...as would be earplugs!

[Methem]

Originally posted by VAXman
...as would be earplugs!

... oh well, so much about positive feedback.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
You mentioned Starrider on a number of occasions! Not in this thread. that's where I got it from

AH, 'tis true

[Rick and Roll]

May be Bill Ward. I know he sings on "It's Alright".

I knew I could count on Vax for the comment. At least it's not that flaccid and limp post-Fish Marillion.

I'm not dreading IQ at Nearfest (seen them once and like most of their stuff), but I need earplugs for the vocals (Peter Nicholls?). Whiny......

I'll let you know in advance when the Sabfest will occur.

And Spaz you are very consistent. And that's a good thing.....

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
May be Bill Ward. I know he sings on "It's Alright".

I knew I could count on Vax for the comment. At least it's not that flaccid and limp post-Fish Marillion.

Nice to see you're still unenlightened.

Originally posted by Rick and Roll

I'm not dreading IQ at Nearfest (seen them once and like most of their stuff), but I need earplugs for the vocals (Peter Nicholls?). Whiny......

...and Ozzy is a treat? I'll take the whiney IQ, thank you.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by VAXman

...and Ozzy is a treat? I'll take the whiney IQ, thank you.

Can you imagine a duo of those two?