"World" music

[Rick and Roll]

As a side comment, I brought a point up, and Jim suggested I start a thread...

It always amused me when I heard the term "World" music. To me, it implies a self-centered view. For some reason, I've always been fascinated by how other cultures have to bend to the American point of view when it comes to entertainment (or anything else for that matter). We impose our will and categorize everything without regard.

Not always a popular view...maybe I'm recoiling from having a not so tolerant family growing up and never travelling outside of North America.

My question was....

Do you all really think Clannad is World music? I always though of them as having parallels to US musical genres, just from another country. Maybe it's just me, but the term "World" and "Ethnic" seems to assume an egotistical stance from the ugly American.

Couldn't a band like Clannad be more properly categorized than lumping it into World music?

And when Peter Gabriel plays with artists from Senegal, it's world music. Huh?

Oh yeah, "Krautrock" too...

It would be really interesting to hear what these artists are categorized in their native lands.

[Yesspaz]

Give me a freakin' break. This sort of politically correct-mindedness is absurd. "World" and "Ethnic" are simply terms to help categorize the music as a non-pop offering from outside America. Yes, American record companies came up with the titles to help market them to the American market. World and Ethnic simply apply to a certain type of music from around the world - that being music that's more or less native and uninfluenced by Western music. A cd of Icelandic chants is world music and Sigur Ros is some sort of rock.

I certainly do not see the categorization of music a symptom of the so-called ugly American. Krautrock was brought up as an example, but what about Canterbury? New Orleans Jazz? Memphis Blues? Southern Rock? The reason that these aren't "offensive" is because anyone with sense knows that one way to categorize and describe music is to associate it with where it came from. If you try to descrive Iona to a friend you have to refer to them as having more or less a Celtic sound. The Black Crowes? A little Southern Rock, a little Memphis blues, and a lot of beer.

If the native land is a developed nation and they have recordings of the tribal music of their lands or something similar, it's probably similar to how native American music is categorized in the U.S. - ethnic, native, or world.

Now, consider this. Rather than see the terms world and ethnic as evidence of American ego..., remember it's the machine that is the American recording industry that is largely responsible for the recording and preservation of this music in the early years (everyone all over the world is preserving it now). Much of this music will fade into the past without recording it, so I think thankfulness for it's being recorded is a better response than complaining about what it's called.

PS: Imagine what music we've lost through the history of earth because it came and went before recording was possible....

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

Give me a freakin' break. This sort of politically correct-mindedness is absurd. "World" and "Ethnic" are simply terms to help categorize the music as a non-pop offering from outside America. Yes, American record companies came up with the titles to help market them to the American market. World and Ethnic simply apply to a certain type of music from around the world - that being music that's more or less native and uninfluenced by Western music. A cd of Icelandic chants is world music and Sigur Ros is some sort of rock.

I certainly do not see the categorization of music a symptom of the so-called ugly American. Krautrock was brought up as an example, but what about Canterbury? New Orleans Jazz? Memphis Blues? Southern Rock? The reason that these aren't "offensive" is because anyone with sense knows that one way to categorize and describe music is to associate it with where it came from. If you try to descrive Iona to a friend you have to refer to them as having more or less a Celtic sound. The Black Crowes? A little Southern Rock, a little Memphis blues, and a lot of beer.

If the native land is a developed nation and they have recordings of the tribal music of their lands or something similar, it's probably similar to how native American music is categorized in the U.S. - ethnic, native, or world.

Now, consider this. Rather than see the terms world and ethnic as evidence of American ego..., remember it's the machine that is the American recording industry that is largely responsible for the recording and preservation of this music in the early years (everyone all over the world is preserving it now). Much of this music will fade into the past without recording it, so I think thankfulness for it's being recorded is a better response than complaining about what it's called.

PS: Imagine what music we've lost through the history of earth because it came and went before recording was possible....

I am far from politically correct. Anyone who has met me can attest to that. Anyway, this is not about that...it's about how music is categorized in non-US countries. I'm very interested in those opinions.

Blame the record companies? It's like blaming government...it's us we need to blame. There is no faceless entity responsible.

Krautrock is not offensive to me because of any politically correct bias. I object because it's a stupid term. Would you call some Japanese music "Japrock"?

Cantebury refers to a scene, not a genre. It's like the SF 60's scene. Hatfield and the North is jazz at its core, they just came out of the Cantebury scene.

You prove my point when you mention N.O. Jazz and Memphis Blues. It's got the place AND the type. You don't hear a reference to Pakistani blues do you?

No, Sigor Ros and Icelandic chants both have some kind of type. Western influence? Is Memphis Blues "World music" to an Aussie?

I enjoy your points, they are well-thought out. But when you start a sentence with "anyone with sense knows", well you lose your fizzle.

Iona is not Celtic because of the music, it's Celtic because it comes from there. It's like saying all flute bands sound like Tull. I hate that. (By the way try describing Tull to someone)...

We do this in the States because we hate to think that anyone else is right. Change to the Metic system? Nah, we're right, everyone else is wrong.

I understand I'm not pushing a very popular position here...I'm just trying to get some opinions.

[Hawksun]

Japanese music is already called J-pop and J-Rock depending on the genre. As for how other cultures label their music, thay probably have their own terms, better asking them rather than theorize blindly.

For my part, I think world music is a fine categorization as it is. Otherwise we would have to categorize EVERY form/genre/style/subgenre. My local record store has a whole section labeled World music but which use countries as subcategories ; I think that's it's probably the best compromise in terms of both respect and efficiency. Otherwise it would be an administrative nightmare.

I know the term is pretty U.S.A.-centric, but we gotta learn to live with some music journalist's misnomer that got accepted as a whole genre descriptor.

--Hawksun

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by Hawksun

My local record store has a whole section labeled World music but which use countries as subcategories ;--Hawksun

Synphonic, at the festivals, labels everything by Country. But it's Country then alphabet

[Hawksun]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

Synphonic, at the festivals, labels everything by Country. But it's Country then alphabet

My store also uses an alphabetical subdivision for each country, but since alphabetical ordering is a de facto standard I didn't think I needed to mention it.

[podakayne]

just to throw some dirt on this whole "thing"...it kills me the necessity of lables...

why would American Indian music be the only "tribal" music or does it have to be the music of the indigenous people to make it tribal? ethnic? what about american country(i asked a while back why keith urban whos an aussie sings amer. country and how if there were an aussie equivalent sound there), american jazz(world, ethnic?), american r&b(ethnic?), american rockNroll, it's all tribal in nature if you look at the roots(no pun intended)...but alas the human thing is to catogorize it so it's not lost in a sea of sounds. as we all know there are many items(music) that transend categories, but we are creatures of discription and the need to place some kind of box around a thing—to neatly put it in a place. whether that's in our heads or ears, is politcally correct (and that crap changes too often for my taste) or otherwise noted will continue to be a human phenomenon (or however you correctly spell it)

backing out slowly

interesting thread

[Yesspaz]

Originally Posted by Hawksun

but we gotta learn to live with some music journalist's misnomer that got accepted as a whole genre descriptor.

heh! Nice.

I like Poda's point. It's all ethnic in some way. If you're from rural Tennessee and playing a banjo, it's bluegrass, but it's also ethnic in that it springs forth from an ethnic group's history. With that said, once a genre is established, anyone else out there with that sound falls into it no matter where they are from. Keith Urban is a great example. He's Australian and is on top of the country music world. Why is he "country?" Because he is purposefully playing a certain established sound. Therefore it's not ethnic or world. But if an Australian record label records native Aboriginal music and releases it, it's ethnic because it IS the music of an ethnic group. Now, as soon as that music becomes the influence of someone like Sting, Paul Simon, Peter Gabriel, etc., we say something like, "The new so-and-so album is a rich mix of smart pop and progressive rock, laced with world and ethnic music." We say that because it works and is established.

I'm not one for reinventing the wheel, fixing something that isn't broken, or insert-idiom-here when it's not really needed.

Now, as for Clannad, they're definitely world in that there is a pure native music that they are largely channeling. But they are also "new age" or "prog" or "pop" in that they aren't playing a pure form of traditional Celtic music. I mean, Maire Brennan is Enya's older sister, and Enya has the same problem. Is she pop? New age? Prog? World? or all of the above? Thing is, you almost NEVER find a pure form of anything. As has been said before, "The mesh is the mess, baby."

[roger]

the problem with World as a label is it's a bit broad. all music is world music. I'm waiting for extra-terrestrial.

and yeah, I know about Sun-Ra...

[Yesspaz]

extra-terrestrial music! Anybody got a capture of Spock playing that harp-like thing from that one episode? We could add that to the list

[sharcnorris]

Originally Posted by Hawksun

For my part, I think world music is a fine categorization as it is. Otherwise we would have to categorize EVERY form/genre/style/subgenre. My local record store has a whole section labeled World music but which use countries as subcategories ; I think that's it's probably the best compromise in terms of both respect and efficiency. Otherwise it would be an administrative nightmare.

I know the term is pretty U.S.A.-centric, but we gotta learn to live with some music journalist's misnomer that got accepted as a whole genre descriptor.

--Hawksun

I agree with Hawk and Roger.
If you want controversy, World and Ethnic are just PC terms for Native Music by People of Color. If a White man is in Front, you can bet the Originators are performing in the back

[roger]

I can't find the Spock harp video, but I did find the one of him singing the Bilbo Baggins song... oy.

[Rick and Roll]

I already have the Bilbo song


The reason I started this thread was an offhand remark i made that jim thought would make a good thread.

I'd have responded sooner but my email failed to alert me to new posts

Anyway,

Spaz I disagree vehemently with your statement about Keith Urban et al. Country music is not country music anymore. It's pop. Keith Urban is a pop artist that sounds country. Country has invaded the fabric of America (like Nascar) to the point that the accepatable muzak is Country Pop. Go into any supermarket, doctor's office etc. You'll hear it. Country is now Mainstream.

Keith Urban being Aussie proves NOTHING about the validity of anything. He's just a pretty boy (voted #3 sexiest star, don't read into why I know that, I retain silly useless info) that happens to be banging Nicole Kidman. he's not a "Country" artist per se.

"Native aboriginal music" is not World, it's just native aboriginal music.

I agree with Sharc. Peter Gabriel using Youssou N'dour on vocals does not make him a World artist. Such bullshit these terms...I still don't know what the hell "smart pop" is...

I wish you all could have heard Tony Levin's Nearfest story about a song he did with Peter Gabriel and an ape. What to call that?

[mossy]

Actually, he's now banging his wife... as of a couple of weeks ago.

mossy (another retainer of silly useless info)

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by mossy

Actually, he's now banging his wife... as of a couple of weeks ago.

mossy (another retainer of silly useless info)

I knew that... I was just using the verbage to say that's one of the reasons he's more popular than others.....I was surprised to hear he's late 30's like she is (or so she says haha)..I thought he was a young thing.

[mossy]

Right. I was taking you too literally (dangerous!). As with "World Music", there's another term which is open to interpretation. "Banging". To me that's what you do with someone when you're not married......or.....when you are married but not with your spouse.

Oh, and I think Keith Urban is originally from New Zealand, but moved to Oz as a kid. Nicole Kidman was born in Hawaii and moved to Oz as a kid. I always thought she married Tom Cruise for a green card.

[Yesspaz]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

Spaz I disagree vehemently with your statement about Keith Urban et al. Country music is not country music anymore. It's pop. Keith Urban is a pop artist that sounds country. Country has invaded the fabric of America (like Nascar) to the point that the accepatable muzak is Country Pop. Go into any supermarket, doctor's office etc. You'll hear it. Country is now Mainstream.

I agree with Sharc. Peter Gabriel using Youssou N'dour on vocals does not make him a World artist. Such bullshit these terms...I still don't know what the hell "smart pop" is...

1. I know that Country music today isn't the same thing as country in the 50s and 60s. We all know that, but that's not the point. The point is today's country music is an established style and Keith Urban does it' so he's country, place of origin being irrelevant. And Peter Gabriel using Youssou N'dour does not make him a world artist - agreed - but it does make him "world influenced" or something like that. He's not world, but he's "whatever" with a little world music thrown in. We do this every day with other styles of music: "Oh it's sort of a hard rock sound with a little jazz." That's not a problem at all, but OOOOOH, as soon as it's "a little world" music that's thrown in, now we have issues.

2. "smart pop" - I didn't intend that to read as a genre, just a description. Britney Spear's music I would not describe as smart pop, but Peter Gabriel I would. It's poppy music that has an intellectual appeal. Top 40 right now: Gnarls Barkley's "Crazy" is smart pop - again, as a descriptor, not as a genre. It's pop that is smart, clever, really well done.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by mossy

Right. I was taking you too literally (dangerous!). As with "World Music", there's another term which is open to interpretation. "Banging". To me that's what you do with someone when you're not married......or.....when you are married but not with your spouse.

Oh, and I think Keith Urban is originally from New Zealand, but moved to Oz as a kid. Nicole Kidman was born in Hawaii and moved to Oz as a kid. I always thought she married Tom Cruise for a green card.

Could be...like faffing I guess...couldn't you bang with your spouse? Yeah i guess you're right...my head hurts

Oz? Is that Austraila?

If he's from NZ does that mean he's a Maori artist?

[mossy]

somebody's opinion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_music

[Hawksun]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

I wish you all could have heard Tony Levin's Nearfest story about a song he did with Peter Gabriel and an ape. What to call that?

Zoocore is my best guess.