Progressive rock as a cultural phenomenon

[Wojtek]

Not very long ago I attended very very interesting lecture about music of 60's, 70's and 80's. Before it started I had been sure that phenomenon of progressive rock would be mentioned. It wasn't. The whole situation made me a bit sad during that day but also inclined towards small reflection. What was the contribution of prog rock to the culture of the 70's?
It made and still makes me wonder - if we listen to to the unrealistic, out of social context genre, artistically snobistic music?
But maybe it's not like that? Maybe prog was in the 70's sth more than form of expression of the given, self-contained group of people? I tried to compare it with jazz, nowadays listeners of both prog and jazz are considered to be elite of entertainment music listeners, niche situation of both these genres is also similar. But whereas jazz carries tons of history and is a symbol of the certain period of our culture, really big symbol to be precise, prog....

What do you think, do we listen to the musical genre which is beautiful, but which is genre-failure, which as a cultural force turned out to be nothing?...

[RogorMortis]

I listen to prog music because all the rest is boring, repetive and commercial.

[mossy]

Prog in the 70's was a symbol of its time...drugs, fashion, culture, language, a huge phenomenon with enormously far reaching effects for many of us who were growing up at the time. So, in that way yes, it's had an impact and continues to have one.

[fremder99]

Wojtek, what a great "seed" for thought!! I hope my ideas that follow are worthy...

I had a brief stint in radio, and played a lot of prog. This was the early 90s, and the genre was really disdained at the time, and the station played predominantly obscure "alt rock", post-punk, etc. However, I was appreciated (by some) for my own take on "obscure".

I became privy to a conversation about my show that went something like this:

DJ 1 to ProgDIr: "What does that guy Alaric play?"
ProgDir: "It's mostly people with chops!"
DJ 2 to both: "Yeah, it's the 'People With Chops Show!'"

(OK, I'm proud of that! )

But, my point is that prog music is (to me... uh oh... ) defined in part by the fact that it takes a certain technical skill to make it! Likewise (not to make a direct analogy) Abstract Expressionism takes a certain technical skill t o make... successfully. And... likewise, it takes a certain "ear/eye" to appreciate these artforms. This is one way where I think notions of "elitism" come in.... Either one "gets it" or one doesn't... Either one is stimulated to tap his toes to a 9/8 rhythm or one is still trying to figure it out... And those that don't are not likely to feel comfortable around those that do! Sadly, this divides, rather than unites...

I think the art genre that actually affects society/culture at all is a damn lucky genre! 8) It usually relies on the intersection (collision?) of several circumstances that <I>enable</I> the genre to make such waves. But, it usually also relies on being absolutely new and original. Part of the success of jazz' is that it's been able to keep itself loosely defined; and it's been able to re-define itself along the way, absorbing influences at every step, and including a lot of cross-genre artists.... Is Allan Holdsworth prog or jazz?? How many jazz artists can remain "jazz" while crossing over to "prog". More, I think, than vice versa.... For example, how/why does Eberhard Weber end up in the "jazz" stacks???

I dunno... Maybe I'm wrong on that point... but it seems prog has, to some extent, had to resist absorbing too many influences for fear of losing its own identity.

When prog arrived, it was new and original, but I wonder (aloud) if it simply, by its nature (i.e. needing an appreciation of "chops"), wasn't "gotten" by enough people to make a bigger wave than it did...

One thing is for certain, it has clearly had a LONG-LASTING effect, or we wouldn't be listening to all these new artists on this fabulous station, having such (hopefully this is a bit) stimulating discussions some 35-40 years later!

[isabella]

The prog rock is like a blow.

Is like a blow of life in my mind,
a daily research about me... but very funny of course!

Dear friends many words,
please blowing up!


Isa at the sun.

Originally posted by mossy
Prog in the 70's was a symbol of its time...drugs, fashion, culture, language, a huge phenomenon with enormously far reaching effects for many of us who were growing up at the time. So, in that way yes, it's had an impact and continues to have one.

Abso-bloody-lutely mossy.

Listening to the likes of Crimson, Tull, Genesis and especially Yes during those early/mid 70s days went a long, long way to making me the person I am today. I still try to live by the ideals that they instilled in me and I feel a better person for it.

So Wojtek, the idea that it is a"cultural force turned out to be nothing" is anathema to me. It has been one of the most important influences in my life.

[Wojtek]

Keithie, I am not calling individual influence into question. Music is 'shaping' our tastes and characters, changes our life (TFK's Stardust We Are indeed changed my life). But I have never heard about prog as a generation voice, about prog rock culture (apart form surrealistic artworks). From what I read in the Edward Macan's book abour progressive rock the elements mentioned by mossy were rather connected with the music prog derives from: the late 60's psychedelic rock.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Keith Waye
Abso-bloody-lutely mossy.

Listening to the likes of Crimson, Tull, Genesis and especially Yes during those early/mid 70s days went a long, long way to making me the person I am today. I still try to live by the ideals that they instilled in me and I feel a better person for it.

So Wojtek, the idea that it is a"cultural force turned out to be nothing" is anathema to me. It has been one of the most important influences in my life.

I was listening to American pop and metal and hard rock and funk in the 70's. Then in the 80's I listened to 60's and 70's prog.

Go figure.

I like Rogor's explanation the best.....but i like boring and commercial on occasion.

Maybe some things are better unanalyzed.

Originally posted by Rick and Roll

I like Rogor's explanation the best.....but i like boring and commercial on occasion.

Maybe some things are better unanalyzed.

I know what you mean Rick. I like some commercial music too. As you know that even extends to Barry Manilow and Doris Day. As for not analyzing (with the emphasis on the anal ) things, I think it was prog music that made me WANT to analyze things. Learning more about the reasons things happen enhance my enjoyment of them. Knowing a little more about a composer's state of mind when a piece was written make it even more meaningful.

Not sure that extends to Gangsta Rap though.

[RogorMortis]

Listening to the likes of Crimson, Tull, Genesis and especially Yes during those early/mid 70s days went a long, long way to making me the person I am today.

Dangerous saying that KW - we are a few guessing whether it would have been a bonus if you hadn't listened ......

Originally posted by RogorMortis
Dangerous saying that KW - we are a few guessing whether it would have been a bonus if you hadn't listened ......

Weeeeeelllllllll! all I can say is that Pam still likes Tull, Yes and Genesis although she has gone off King Crimson. I think that's the 21st Century Schizoid part of me that scares her a bit.

[Wojtek]

Originally posted by Keith Waye
Weeeeeelllllllll! all I can say is that Pam still likes Tull, Yes and Genesis although she has gone off King Crimson. I think that's the 21st Century Schizoid part of me that scares her a bit.

When you're Aural Moonie it's rather Moonchild than 21st Century Schizoid... .

[podakayne]

it's a thinking mind's music if you were to ask me. very difficult indeed to discern why it's rhythms invite some, repell others or worst yet have no effect at all on the larger masses. do i care it's viewed as elitest... hardly! it's an acquired taste most definately.

has it been influential socially, undeniably yes. whether you hear it watered down in mainstream music, or behind a movie or television soundtrak..it's there. it's been UNderrated IMO...and to have skipped over the progressive movement in that lecture Woj, shows ignorance of the subject matter. Did they focus on all music jazz, rock, classic, folk...there were prog offshoots of each. it at least deserved a footnote.

growing up a psuedo-hippie in berkeley it was reflected...yes there was the big "rock" explosion, and within the trippy, more psychodelic, more experimental music was the very beginning of progressive music...music & lyrics that told a story...i dont get how they could have missed that?

i have musical taste that stand apart from the masses, i listen proudly. i may dip my toe in the mass from time to time, but for my personal edification & satistfaction only progressive(and a few other genre) will suffice...it's the nature of my being....and then there's rogors explaination

genesis said it best still "i know what i like, and i like what i know"

my 2cents
poda

[dinosaur]

I remember listening to the radio a lot in the sixties/seventies. Three, four minute tunes was about all stations would play. And I liked most of it...Zepp, Doors, Black Sabbath, Hendrix, Beatles, Tull...
I saw Manfred Mann's Earth Band on some television show and said "Wow, why isn't this on the radio?" Fortunately, they subsequently had some success, but not what I would have expected. This seems to be true of all of the 'prog' 'art' 'symphonic' rock bands.
I remember hearing the term 'pretentious' describing (most notoriously) Yes and ELP, and then hearing it echoed over and over by pseudo music critics. To me it was like telling Mozart he used too many notes! (I love that exhange in the movie, where Mozart asks Salieri which notes should be removed!)
I believe the lack of success, or really, lack of exposure, was simply because commercial interests were not allowing 'Gates of Delirium' on air due to the number of commercial slots it would span. But I also remember a late night radio show that played the top 100 albums, or some such thing, and the DJ said he was glad to be in the studio to hear "Close to the Edge" on their great sound system.
To me, there was nothing else like the experience of discovering the nuances these new composers were squeezing out of the (electric) rock/classical pallette. Some of the Zeppelin/Beatles stuff is like that, but not to the extent of the more technically brilliant works (IMO) of the bands we now call prog.
I'm just happy to be around to witness the last decade or two that has seen so many people putting together such great new pretentious works!