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  #1  
Old 07-14-2001, 06:18 PM
kmack kmack is offline
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Define Progressive

I like Genesis, Yes and ELP but how did that type of music get the "progressive" label? If you look at Websters, progressive is defined as:

pro•gres•sive \pre-"gre-siv\ adj
1 : of, relating to, or characterized by progress
2 : moving forward or onward : advancing
3 : increasing in extent or severity
4 : of or relating to political Progressives
5 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form that expresses action in progress at the time of speaking or a time spoken.

So, why did "progressive" music get labled as progressive?
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2001, 08:00 PM
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We go through this same discussion about every 6 months on rec.music.progressive. But let me tell you what it means to me.

Progressive, in a nutshell to me, means to "bring to the next level." I think calling it progressive rock means that at one time, in the late 60s with The Beatles, rock started to "progress" to become something new. It wasn't "rock and roll" as they knew it (Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc), but it maintained some aspects of rock (the instrucments were essentially the same, the overall style was rock-like, etc.)

Oddly enough, the musicians who created Progressive Rock in that era didn't see themselves as rock musicians. They really thought they were creating something new and different, which they were.

I think progressive rock, as it is used today has three meanings:

1. Rock in the style of the late 60s/early-mid 70s progressive rock bands, and
2. Rock that is progressing music to a new, never heard-before level (or at least trying).
3. Rock that invokes certain attributes of 1, in an attempt to become 2.

Generally, fans of 1 hate 2, but fans of 2 like 1, and cite them as early influences.

Examples of 3 include Radiohead and Tool, (others would say Queensryche and such).

There are few examples of 2, but might include more experimental groups like Blue Man Group, but also include well-knowns like Vangelis, Enya, Phillip Glass and Art of Noise.

Essentailly, I think "prog" is mostly 1.


That's my 2 cents...

Avian
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2001, 08:51 AM
BigTwin BigTwin is offline
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Talking Talk about opening a can of worms...!

Put me down for most of #1, some of #2, and #3 will have to go on a case by case basis!!!!
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2001, 12:18 PM
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What is prog?

Well, my 2 cents (and no fair asking for change). I cut my teeth on early 70's prog, so that's my starting point. But anything that is challenging musically and I like might just turn up on AM someday. The further it is stylistically from classic 70's prog, the more is has to move me to be considered. Things I look for include complex meters/polyrhythms/syncopation; epic tracks; melodic flow and good arrangements; virtuosity; complex subject matter for lyrics; interesting instrumentation; etc. And there are two "impossible to define" factors: anti-popularity (the more likely you are to hear it on classic rock radio, the less likely you are to hear it on AM), and simply whether or not I like it.
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Old 07-16-2001, 06:13 PM
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Two and a Half Cents

pro•gres•sive \pre-"gre-siv\ adj
1 : of, relating to, or characterized by progress


4 : of or relating to political Progressives
5 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form that expresses action in progress at the time of speaking or a time spoken.

The second webster def...

2 : moving forward or onward : advancing

...defines music like SGT. PEPPER and BLUE MAN GROUP....

3 : increasing in extent or severity

...means music that pushes limits. To me progressive rock is anything that is not "normal" rock - meaning straight fours with elementary structure, few chords, blah. Prog can be some of that, but not all. I think of early King's X as prog. mostly in 4, but virtuosity abounds, deep lyrics, incredible 3 part harmony, sometimes up to three different vocal lines going on at one time, various instrumentation includin sitar, cello, etc.

I personally have come to like the term Smart rock over art rock or prog rock. It's intelligent rock and roll music. I say music because Bob Dylan is intelligent lyrically, but not musically.


Prog is Smart Art Rock Music, no matter what the "style."

anyone heard the prog-core stylings of Stretch Arm Strong or Project 86?
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Old 07-16-2001, 06:14 PM
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Oops...

Oops, bad color, sorry.

and i didn't mean to leave the webster definitions at the top.
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  #7  
Old 07-18-2001, 09:00 AM
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Not real easy to define, huh?

Especially when you throw in some of the so-called "New-Age" stuff. There's a lot of that genre that sounds like the next logical progression of progressive (did I say that?). Look at some of the early releases on Private Music (Peter Baumann's label)...Eddie Jobson's "Theme of Secrets", some of the Patrick O'Hearn stuff and David Van Teighem (sic)....then there was a label from Capitol called Cinema that featured new age albums from Pete Bardens, Patrick Moraz, Tony Kaye, etc. Then there's stuff like Adeimus, Deep Forrest, Clannad....hell, I even like Enigma...how would you classify that?
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  #8  
Old 07-18-2001, 11:33 AM
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Private, Cinema et al

Wow Big Twin - someone else knows about Private Music and Cinema. We've got that Eddie Jobson, and the Carlos Alomar on the station is also from Private. One Patrick O'Hearn is up, and I've got three more I'll probably eventually add. And I'm still looking for Sanford Ponder "Tigers Are Brave". My brother has a couple of the Cinema CDs, I'll borrow them someday and get them on here.

I like a lot of stuff that's defined as new age, and some of it makes its way here, as long as it's not too mellow. I've considered buying Enigma and adding it here, maybe one day...
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Old 07-18-2001, 03:08 PM
BigTwin BigTwin is offline
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While we're on the subject of Jobson, don't forget the Zinc/Green Album (some of it is a little "poppish"). And there was another label called No Speak that had some good stuff (I think Billy Currie's "Transportation" was on that label). And how about Michael Hoenig?

Uh-oh...I think this thread's turning into music suggestions
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  #10  
Old 07-18-2001, 10:15 PM
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Thanks

Clear as mud

I'll have to digest it all
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  #11  
Old 07-19-2001, 09:34 AM
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kmack

Remember.....you asked!
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Old 07-20-2001, 10:19 PM
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I know
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Old 07-23-2001, 11:54 AM
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Jobson and no speak

I've got that Green Album on vinyl, can't seem to find it on CD. And yes, that Billy Currie is from IRS No Speak label, as is the Stewart Copeland. I also have Wishbone Ash and Steve Hunter, I may select some tracks from those as well.
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:30 PM
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Re: Define Progressive

With the recent comments regarding additions to the play list, I happened upon this somewhat older thread . I guess it's a never ending discussion.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:19 PM
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Re: Define Progressive

Quote:
Originally Posted by progzealot View Post
With the recent comments regarding additions to the play list, I happened upon this somewhat older thread . I guess it's a never ending discussion.
Nope, doesn't seem to be much progress around here.
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Old 08-17-2008, 04:54 AM
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Re: Define Progressive

Right someone made the mistake of starting a defining thread again and the difficulties of agreeing on something definite.

Here is the Mortis theorem of progressive based on Jerry Lucky's words:

1. Complex arrangements usually featuring intricate keyboard and guitar playing including complex chord progressions
2. Songs predominately on the longish side but structured
3. A mixture of loud and soft passages with various crescendos
4. Symphonic use of Mellotrons or string synths or an orchestra for that matter
5. Use of other musical styles
6. Extended instrumentation solos
7. Multi-movement compositions or multi-sectional compositions created from unrelated musical parts
8 Blending acoustic, electric and electronic instruments into a emotion

Now not all 8 points have to be fulfilled to be progressive - just some of them

Perhaps this makes it easier or even more difficult.....??
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Old 08-17-2008, 06:40 AM
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Re: Define Progressive

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh!

Kings X are NOT Prog.

(Thought I'd get in before Rick and spaz.... )
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:22 AM
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Re: Define Progressive

In the seven years since those post, this topic gets bandied about constantly on all music forums.

Defining it doesn't interest me anymore in the least. There's never any way of discussing it w/o interjecting personal opinion, so therefore it takes all of the objectivity out of it. Also, there are elements of everything in many songs. Sure "The Clap" is progressive because Steve Howe plays it right?

Defining prog is just behind Politics and Religion in the no discussion zone. It is fun to discuss these things, but invariably someone gets pissed off. Happens all the time.

I'd just rather say if I like the music or not. And i know you're trying to be funny, Keithie, but the King's X joke is tiresome. Sample the song (singular!) on my show this week and draw your own unfettered conclusion.
May be away fron the forums for a few days, thankfully

Last edited by Rick and Roll : 08-17-2008 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:47 AM
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Re: Define Progressive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick and Roll View Post
I'd just rather say if I like the music or not. And i know you're trying to be funny, Keithie, but the King's X joke is tiresome. Sample the song (singular!) on my show this week and draw your own unfettered conclusion.
May be away fron the forums for a few days, thankfully
Careful Rickster.....you may get a nose bleed up there on that high horse.

People take the micky out of me all the time. Never gets tiresome.....you know why?

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  #20  
Old 08-17-2008, 04:31 PM
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Re: Define Progressive

It is my opinion that initially the term was used to describe bands who's music progressed beyond simple 4/4 time signatures and verse chorus song structures.

Somehow the term stuck and was applied to any arty band no matter how derivative they were. Not that this is a bad thing necessarily but I think these days too many people take the term "progressive rock" way too literally. To me it refers to a sound more than a musical approach that has to follow certain rules. Ultimately everyone seems to have their own definition of what is progressive or what is prog so there is no point in arguing about it.
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