Go Back   Aural Moon - Progressive Rock Discussion > Prog Rock Discussion > Music Suggestions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 8 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-27-2003, 12:37 PM
La Mano Gaucha La Mano Gaucha is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10
Classical Music on Aural Moon

I've been listening to Aural Moon and ocassionally requesting items from time to time for about four or five months. It's a terrific site and the lists are generally great. Kudos to the administrators!

Regarding classical music, I came across a tiny selection by two composers, namely Mozart and Beethoven. The Mozart was most, perhaps all of his Symphony No. 40, while the Beethoven was the scherzo and finale of the 9th Symphony, if I remember correctly. Although these pieces are very important to the history of music, especially the LvB 9th, they demonstrate little connection toward Progressive Rock, in my opinion.

I feel that certain well-known twentieth century works are much more closely related to Prog Rock, generally speaking.

For example, the King Crimson of the Larks' and Starless period would be practically unthinkable without the quite direct influence of Stravinsky. (I don't think I saw any Stravinsky on the lists, but if I overlooked it, please let me know.) Especially important are obvious pieces like The Rite of Spring, from 1911-13. Its agressive use of rather highly dissonant and rhythmically dislocated ostinati were probably very much on Fripp's mind while composing Larks' Part II and Fracture. This goes hand in hand with a certain Englishness to the KC sound that is perhaps related to the darker or more aggressive works of Holst (like Mars and Saturn, from The Planets, Op. 32), or of Vaughan-Williams (Fourth Symphony). The atonality of guitar lines like the big solo on Larks' Part I should be put into perspective by offering some standard examples of atonality in a classical context, especially early atonality. Some short works, or movements of works, by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern should be represented for comparison. That is works from around 1909 to 1920... Actually, parts of Berg's Violin Concerto, from around 1935, would be great examples of the atonality of some of Fripp's guitar solos. Now, the Berg lines are much more lyrical, but if one adds the metronomic quality present in some of the rhythmic forms of the less frivolous neo-classical composers of the 20s and 30s, like Hindemith, to the atonality of Berg, one has a rough blueprint for some of Fripp's aesthetic tendencies.

As far as older work is concerned, the keyboard sonatas by Domenico Scarlatti, some of the simpler two and three-part invention by J.S. Bach, and some of the later choral writing of Handel are probably not too far removed from some of the work by Wakeman, particularly some portions of Six Wives, Journey and King Arthur. This is coupled with a barely assimilated sense of the "nobilmente" of Elgar (Enigma Variations) and the accessibility (but lack of vulgarity, fortunately) of someone like Grieg (Peer Gynt, from which Wakeman took, almost without any change, in certain portions of Journey).

ELP is another obvious example, and the finale of the Ginastera Piano Concerto No. 1 should be on AM's list, this in order to compare the original and the ELP rendering. (The Ginastera is from the early 60s -- he was a fairly conservative composer, but not too much so, especially in his later years.) I think it would be very interesting to serious listeners. The same applies to other things ELP reconstructed, such as Copland and Prokofiev (The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits, which is in reality a rendering of the second movement of that composer's Scythian Suite, and which is far more aggressive and brutal in its original form, even if from 1914). Emerson's own Piano Concerto No. 1 shows plenty of influence from some composers. His concerto does not even come close to the concertos by these composers, but at least he showed an awareness of them; the third movement of his concerto shows obvious debt to Prokofiev (but alas, not nearly as bold or as formally disciplined yet inventive). Bartok in a gentle mood too...

For the more adventurous listener, Varese's Ameriques, Arcana and Integrales are essential, and any listener of the more complex types of Prog Rock should listen to these.

My point is, Mozart and Beethoven are great but a little illogical on the list. If the administrators would like, I could make particular recomendations of pieces and recordings. Just ten or twenty pieces would make a huge difference, and not only serve a great educational purpose which would share a perspective on one of the most important of the myriad origins of Prog Rock, but also deliver a good deal of enjoyment as well. It would only be a purchase of a few CDs, probably ten or fifteen... Please let me know if you would be interested -- I would be glad to contribute my pinch of salt.

Last edited by La Mano Gaucha : 06-26-2003 at 12:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-27-2003, 03:35 PM
Avian's Avatar
Avian(Admin) Avian is offline
Owner Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Yellow Springs, OH, USA
Posts: 819
Send a message via ICQ to Avian Send a message via AIM to Avian Send a message via Yahoo to Avian
It's not part of some master plan. It's just the classical music pieces we had on hand immediately. If you search the messages back awhile, you can find all the comments and suggestions about this discussion when it came up before.

Avian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-2003, 06:41 AM
La Mano Gaucha La Mano Gaucha is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10
I found the thread you were telling me about. Most of the composers mentioned on that thread make sense, but it's all too vague. There are no concrete suggestions on what to consider for addition, which would make things very hard for you at the store, especially so if you're not really familiar with the ouvre of each of those composers. Maybe you are -- I don't know -- so if that's the case, I'm sorry to presume.

Anyhow, the point is, don't you think that just a dozen or so major, standard works of the 20th century would make things even better? There're probably a bunch of people who would enjoy listening to ELP versions and original versions on the same session, just to compare them, for example. I think many would find them to be a cool and important addition to the roster. Besides, some of these 20th century pieces I had mentioned influenced Prog Rock profoundly and they are simply very, very great music; certain of these works, some of the finest music ever written, bar none. (In fact, nearly all of the works ELP dealt with are not of the first order.)

Again, I want to say that your site is phenomenal, so please don't construe my "criticism" as negative. Far from it... It's just a thought.

cheers,

LMG

PS: Have you heard of the Art Bears? They were great, especially the third album. "The World As It Is Today".

Last edited by La Mano Gaucha : 05-28-2003 at 06:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-2003, 09:08 AM
zvinki's Avatar
zvinki zvinki is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: canada
Posts: 244
Thumbs up Prog-classic

I agree with La Mano. I, as a music lover and prog fan, thoroughly enjoy Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and some of Holst's Planets. I am not familiar with the other pieces that he mentioned but would be very interested in hearing them. Maybe La Mano could host a series of shows demonstrating classical music's influence on prog. It seems to me that some of Rush's pieces also show an influence from the Romantic period.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-28-2003, 10:51 AM
black max's Avatar
black max black max is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 163
>>>(In fact, nearly all of the works ELP dealt with are not of the first order.)

Not always (though I'm very fond of Pictures at an Exhibition in its orchestrated form), but they translate well to a rock medium. And don't forget Renaissance's fondness for Rachmaninoff and Rimsky-Korsakov.

>>>Maybe La Mano could host a series of shows demonstrating classical music's influence on prog.

I'd listen.

Some of the music by Ligeti as used in the 2001 film by Kubrick would be an excellent addition as well.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-04-2003, 09:40 AM
progdirjim's Avatar
progdirjim(Admin) progdirjim is online now
Owner/Program Director
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,180
Well, I'll take you up on the offer to make a list.

I can't promise that we'll add everything on it, but I'll consider everything. We're trying to be selective on classical, as we've had mixed reactions to it. As much as I like Beethoven's ninth, I'm considering removing it, in fact.

Send me an e-mail....
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-04-2003, 09:43 AM
Avian's Avatar
Avian(Admin) Avian is offline
Owner Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Yellow Springs, OH, USA
Posts: 819
Send a message via ICQ to Avian Send a message via AIM to Avian Send a message via Yahoo to Avian
Welcome back, Jim!

Avian
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-05-2003, 06:13 PM
Yesspaz's Avatar
Yesspaz Yesspaz is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brandon, MS
Posts: 3,134
Thumbs down

You knew it was coming...

Yes was highly influenced by Stravinsky and totally lifted Holst's Jupiter for "The Prophet." King Crimson was influenced by Stravinsky and totally lifted Holst's Mars for "The Devil's Triangle."

However, to repeat an old argument, if we're talking about adding classical music, however "weird," to a rock station because of it's influential status (not to mention that it's "art"), then we should also add some of the weirder modern jazz like Charles Mingus and Modeski, Martin, & Wood - as well as some of the big influential jazz acts. It is well known that Steve Howe was hugely influenced by Django Rheinhardt and Wes Montgomery. If the classical is being considered based on it's influence on prog rock, then we also have to look at Roy Samek, Chet Atkins, and any folky stuff that influenced the likes of Steve Howe and Genesis, or the blues men that influenced Floyd.

Of couse this is and absurdist-styled argument, but you get my point. I'm two-cents poorer again...
__________________
Feels like I'm fiddling while Rome is burning down.
Think I'll lay my fiddle down, take a rifle from the ground!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-05-2003, 06:29 PM
KeithieW's Avatar
KeithieW KeithieW is offline
The London Headbanger
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London, England
Posts: 2,971
Thumbs down I've changed my mind.

No more Classical Music on AM.

Man, it really ain't the place for it!!!!

I love it, but Floyd's "Echoes" followed by Mozart 40 doesn't work in my head.

Sorry!!!
__________________
KeithieW
*************************
Nous sommes du soleil
We are of the sun. We can see!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-07-2003, 10:09 PM
JRV JRV is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 73
LMG is right. Copland's Appalachian Spring is a personal fave. Not for anything related to prog...just on its own.

Holst's Planets have come up several times in this thread. That tells me you oughta at least add Tomita's version to the playlist!
__________________
Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-08-2003, 02:16 PM
Extended Play's Avatar
Extended Play Extended Play is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 316
If anything, let's get some music for the Ondes Martenot! Or maybe Clara Rockmore on the Theremin. Messiaen's Fete Des Belles Eaux is for a sextet of Martenot. Wow, what an amazing piece, but damned hard to find!

Although, I do agree with KW that this is diluting the pool. one or two "out there" pieces would be good, but too many pieces that we already have ELP covering ad infinitum would start to get old pretty quickly.

Heck, why not just start Aural Moon Classical . . .
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-12-2003, 03:13 PM
the_original_ib's Avatar
the_original_ib the_original_ib is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Rolling Meadows, IL
Posts: 264
Send a message via AIM to the_original_ib
Hello,

I think it would be cool to have a show for classical music and jazz that might be of interest to proggers, but I would recommend it be a dedicated show rather than put in the general mix. It's kind of like how some people won't mind tuning in to my show to listen to obscure Scandinavian music, but others won't have any interest in it... by having a predictable time where such music is highlighted people can plan accordingly.

Regards,
Sean
__________________
Someone get me a ladder.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-12-2003, 06:08 PM
JRV JRV is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 73
I think there's little danger of classical representing more than a tiny fraction of the music that actually gets played at AM, regardless of how much or how little is in the library.

So it's no different than anything else that gets played here. Either you like it or you don't. If you do, cool, and if you don't, it'll be over soon. It's all music. Moreover, even if you don't like it, if you have an open mind and know how to listen, you're liable to find something of interest somewhere in it. I'm not a classical kinda guy myself, though I've picked up a few classical albums along the way. Ditto jazz. But I think diversity makes for a much better radio experience, esp. with prog. If homogeneity is your thing, check out your "local" Clear Channel stations.

To me, it boils down to priorities and economics. Given that AM's mission is prog and its funds are limited, most of it needs to go into prog. But that doesn't preclude supplementing it with one or two well-chosen selections from other genres in each album upload.

Idea: Perhaps programming preferences could be collected from subscribers when a donation is made, and weighted at a dollar a vote, or something along those lines. Not sure I'd go along with that if it was "my" station, but perhaps Avian & ProgDirJim are more democratic than I am.
__________________
Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-21-2003, 03:53 AM
La Mano Gaucha La Mano Gaucha is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10
I haven't checked AM in a little while, thus my delay in responding.

ProgDirJim:

I will send you an e-mail in a few days re. classical suggestions for AM. I have to think carefully about what repertory to place on the list I would be sending you because the pieces need to be closely related to Prog Rock, important to the history of western music, of the highest quality, and last but not least, not too many in quantity (funds are probably not unlimited and this is after all a Prog Rock station). I also need to select the finest recordings/interpretations of these, so I will need a little bit of time. I appreciate your possitive response very much.

As a side note, I have to agree about the Beethoven 9th -- it's an awesome work, but it really doesn't fit in well with the rest of the repertoire of AM, so it does make sense to remove it from the list.

Everyone else:

Thanx for the responses to my original post. I didn't think that there would be more than three or four, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

Alas, some of you would like to have classical music completely out of AM... I think that that would be limiting, and in the scheme of things, a bit of a mistake. After all, Prog Rock would be unthinkable without that particualr influence. Remember, we're only talking here about the addition of one or two dozen crucial works, not making AM into a classical station. If one were to calculate percentages, the classical pieces I would suggest via e-mail to Jim would almost certainly amount to well below 1% of the total repertory available at AM, even if some of those pieces are of somewhat considerable length. AMs Prog repertory is *massive*. Yes, a few Prog things could still be added here and there, but damn, what a great selection!

Someone mentioned Ligeti in a previous post. One or two works from Ligeti's early maturity would make perfect sense too, so I'm glad that this composer was mentioned. "Atmospheres" and "Lontano", both for large orchestra sans percussion, are dark and highly complex "forerunners" of things like Brian Eno's "On Land", especially the more mysterious and shadowy tracks of side one. Now technically speaking, they are highly different works of art, and their formal processes completely at odds with each other, but the end result is quite similar, generally speaking -- a musical picture (and a very still one) of a very particular and distinct mood. Those two Ligeti pieces are obviously much more developmental and ambitious, but the *surface* similarity is sometimes clear. I think that Eno is much closer to certain minimalist composers from the late sixties and early seventies, such as LaMonte Young, Charlemagne Palestine and early Reich, but the "atmosphereness" of Eno is quite related to the Ligeti of that period. Come to think of it, the third of Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16 (Colors: Summer Morning by a Lake, Op. 16, No. 3) is very close indeed to the more "inward" pieces of Eno.

Anyhow, the whole thing seems like an interesting possibility for AM, so I'll be sending that e-mail soon. Perhaps some relevant jewels can be added to the request list...

Also, I would love to host a show, but even if the folks that run AM invited me to do so, I wouldn't be able to do it. I'm currently living in China and the vast majority of my recordings are on the other side of the world! Thanx for the vote of confidence though!

cheers,

LMG

Last edited by La Mano Gaucha : 06-21-2003 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-21-2003, 11:31 AM
black max's Avatar
black max black max is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 163
I think the idea of a dedicated show is very good. I wouldn't put too much into the general library. It probably won't get to the point of inundation (as with the Italian prog material that seems to be all I hear some days...okay, okay, it's just an opinion), but a single 2-3 hour show a week would be wonderful.

Some rock/prog band did a version of Holst's Mars. Was it ELO? ELO did do a version of Grieg's In the Hall of the Mountain King.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-21-2003, 08:37 PM
La Mano Gaucha La Mano Gaucha is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10
The "Mars" you're talking about is by KC and the Sunshine Band. Just kidding... King Crimson. In fact, this is not really a version of Holst's "Mars" per se. In reality, the rendering by KC ("The Devil's Triangle" or "Mars", depending on what version you would be listening to) is an extended (and rather monotonous) fantasy upon the principal melodic theme and principal 5/4 rhythmic signature of the original piece. There is little development in the KC version, and the group was not aiming at truly transcribing the actual piece. The KC version is in essence an extended, monolithic crescendo, rather than a clearly defined ABA' form with introduction and coda. Like I said above, it's only a fantasy on some thematic elements from the original. As a side note, notice that the tempo is also radically slowed down in the KC. The harmonies and progressions are also quite different. It's effective, to a certain degree, but not at all a true "version" of the original. (However, sometimes KC did employ the original coda, more or less.)

The same could apply to ELP in their classical manner, but to a lesser degree -- this band tended to stick closer to the originals, sometimes blatantly, sometimes very subtly. An unusual, interesting (but quite underrated) track by ELP is "Abaddon's Bolero", from "Trilogy". The structural and gestural idea of this track derives directly and consciously from Ravel's "Bolero", but the band didn't use a single quotation from the Ravel, whether melodic, harmonic or rhythmic. In this particular instance, the band has fully assimilated a warhorse and created a new work, rather than a pastiche. That's why I have always admired this ELP track, even if it's not one of their best.

LMG

Last edited by La Mano Gaucha : 06-22-2003 at 11:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-23-2003, 08:14 AM
black max's Avatar
black max black max is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 163
I'm familiar with The Devil's Triangle, though it was years before I realized its origins in Holst's Mars. Someone else did a much closer rendition of it. Sly and the Family Stone, maybe? Maybe the Backstreet Boys, with Robert Fripp on guitar.... There's a thought that will freeze your blood.

I'm very fond of Abbadon's Bolero. Glad you mentioned it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-23-2003, 01:10 PM
progdirjim's Avatar
progdirjim(Admin) progdirjim is online now
Owner/Program Director
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,180
Emerson, Lake and Powell did a song called "Mars, Bringer of War" which I BELIEVE is derived from Holst's. I'm not sure, and I don't have my CD with me to check.

I've always been fond of Abaddon's Bolero as well - I love the gradual build-up of intensity....

Last edited by progdirjim : 06-23-2003 at 01:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-23-2003, 09:39 PM
Rick and Roll's Avatar
Rick and Roll Rick and Roll is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Baltimore suburbs
Posts: 5,039
Mars and other classical

yes it's from the Emerson Lake and Powell record - just seems like a vehicle for Cozy Powell to get off, if you ask me...

This is starting to sound like the other threads.

I do like the idea of special shows dedicated to certain variants. Some of the stuff Extended Play does stretch the limits, but it's his show, you know.

You put a Chet Atkins song on Aural Moon and I will lose the equivalent of three entire meals on my computer.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-24-2003, 02:48 AM
KeithieW's Avatar
KeithieW KeithieW is offline
The London Headbanger
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London, England
Posts: 2,971
Re: Mars and other classical

Quote:
Originally posted by Rick and Roll
You put a Chet Atkins song on Aural Moon and I will lose the equivalent of three entire meals on my computer.
I agree with you there Rick..........

However, a little bit of Doris Day magic wouldn't go amiss.

"Once I had a secret loooooooove.............................."
__________________
KeithieW
*************************
Nous sommes du soleil
We are of the sun. We can see!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 PM.