Where is all of the Dream Theater???
 

On a whim I thought I would see what all Dream Theater songs were on this site's list. Much to my surprise I found there were only seven songs!

I thought, "no, that can't be right, maybe they just don't have much newer stuff." So I looked up Spock's Beard, and found a whopping 85 songs.

I have a Spock's Beard CD (V), and while it has its good parts, it has nothing on any of my DT CDs.

So I am forced to conclude that you don't have much because of their heavy metal leanings, which brings me back to a thought I've had many times before. How can people musically flexible enough to listen to prog be incapable of enjoying heavy metal? It makes no sense to me. Maybe you older people have some deeply ingrained metal-phobia. It would take no less to deny the greatness of Scenes From A Memory (or for that matter The Great Debate, or Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, or Honor Thy Father, or Octavarium, etc.). Do you realize that Dream Theater is the most popular progressive rock band among teenagers?

Perhaps the reason prog has been dwindling the past 2 or 3 decades is that any new band, no matter how talented, with a different sound isn't accepted by the prog community. Then most of the other bands are labeled derisive. A few manage to toe the line (The Flower Kings), but don't have anything to offer younger listeners.

And lest you dismiss me as a know-nothing teenager, I must tell you I didn't stumble onto progressive rock after listening to Dream Theater or TOOL like most young proggers (to tell you the truth, I don't know any "young proggers" besides myself, but I know they exist, if only because they post stuff sometimes), but instead went through my dad's 90125 tape, and another Yes song on a computer game (Homeworld), and the good things my dad said about Rush (no tapes, though :( ). I now enjoy King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Peter Gabriel Genesis, Pink Floyd, and many other bands (finally managed to appreciate Tales From Topographic Oceans a coupla' months ago, took forever).

So if you ever find yourself wondering whatever happened to all the good prog that seemed so abundant many years ago, pull yourself out of the seventies, and bring yourself into the 21st century, you musically stagnating, closed-minded, middle-aged adult (or should I say... schizoid man ;) ).

Just in case you wanted a teenager's point of view on your site.

Re: Where is all of the Dream Theater???
 

welcome, John.

did you do a search of the forums for Dream Theater? there's been a lot of discussion about them here.

ah, youth...

Hmm. . . I just checked my calendar, and I wasn't expecting this thread until next week.

Thanks for your post, John. We need these every once in a while to keep things interesting. Dream Theater discussions always seem to pull people out of the woodwork.

may I please?
 

Before we start replying in a visceral vein I would like a crack at this.

Hi John, it's good to see you've at least found Aural Moon worth the trouble to sample. It's appreciated. I'm a DJ here, and my favorite music is heavy music and prog.

Let me tell you my personal feelings about Dream Theater. I have seen them five times. I have six of their CD's. When you make a statement like "maybe they don't have much newer stuff", maybe you do not know the band that well.;)

I am all for expressing opinion. And contrary to what others may think, I am open-minded. But I do not like to be lectured, nor do I enjoy being pigeon-holed into a category.

I've seen, heard, and enjoyed more true metal than you ever will in your lifetime. Dream Theater is not true metal. I really thought they were something at first, but as time passes, I realize most of it is a wankfest. I can still enjoy more of "Awake" and about 20-30 percent of the other records, but the band is limited in it's shelf-life. They're almost TOO talented.

The reverence to Dream Theater makes me ill. they're a very good band that has put out some good music. They're not deities.

You need to realize that there is a lot of heavy music on the Moon. You are being self-limiting by professing a reverence to what I consider an regular band.

Liquid Tension Experiment, Transatlantic, OSI, and any other Mike Portnoy-involved projects - all on the Moon. Oh by the way, Mike Portnoy is Dream Theater's drummer.

And Mike Portnoy is a collaborator and great friend of Neal Morse, who was the force behing Spock's Beard. I seriously doubt that Portnoy thinks his DT records "have something on Spock's Beard".

Oh and Porcupine Tree is more popular now than Dream Theater, my friend. And us fogies love Porcupine Tree too.

Your statement about prog dwindling and no bands to offer younger listeners is a total mistake. You obviously do not know 98% of the great music out there.

Before you insult the other young listeners to Aural Moon (they are many), try soliciting their opinion. You may find that YOU are the closed-minded old man.

By the way, I've played whole shows on old metal bands, recent metal, and in-between. Try sampling some...but be sure to research before you automatically close it off.

I am 41 years old, and I've been to 400 shows. Not only can I outlast you at a Dream Theater show, but I can hang better than you in most activities.

And our slightly older program director could probably even top that. Speraking of which, we've debated this quite a bit. Our program director has made a decision. Try the close to 12,000 other songs here, and play your Dream Theater in private. That's what I do.

I appreciate your comments, John, but it's posts like these that make me NOT want to play any dream theater on my show.

Finally, I've played Sabbath, Maiden, and Judas Priest on my show. not nec prog, but that's the music I grew up with. And Tool also has been played...a favorite of mine.

One more finally...:D most listeners of Gentle Giant are much more tolerant than you.

Round 8! Fight!

Ok, everyone take a deep breath. Relax.

Seriously, welcome to Aural Moon John Galt. Nice to meet you.

1. I might suggest, as Roger did, doing a search of the forums for "Dream Theater" and checking out the posts. I call this round 8 because by my count you are the eighth newcomer to make one of their first posts about the absence of DT. Each time it's the same response. So to get the management's position on DT, the easiest way is to read those old threads. It'll be the same answer here.

2. For the record, we've got a lot of teenagers here, and a lot of folks in their 20s here too, myself included. I'm 26, so if you do the math, I was born in 1979, and didn't really get aware of any music beyond my parents' tastes until my teens, as is most people's experience. That was the 1990's. One of my first Yes experiences was hearing "The Calling" on the radio. All that to say that (A) your experience is not unique, and (B) don't assume because we don't have Dream Theater we are a bunch of old fogeys. In fact, our library has over 15,500 individual tracks, and growing weekly, and much of that is new. Watch the "What's Playing Now" window and you'll see what I mean. In fact, I just checked it and the six things showing are 2003, 2004, 1980, 1999, 2003, and a liner.

3. Might I suggest in the future that you make friends and share your live of porg before calling out the station for being made up of "you musically stagnating, closed-minded, middle-aged adult (or should I say... schizoid man)" type people in your first post on the site. It's not the way to get people to welcome you, be friendly, etc. (as evidenced by RickandRoll's post - sorry rick! :D )

4. Welcome to the MOON! And even though the Program Director has chosen to shy away from most Dream Theater, don't let that run you off. Stick around - I've been to other prog-radio sites and we truly have the best community here. Listen for a few days, chat in the white room (upper right corner of main page) and shout in the black box. Make requests and start jabbering away!

5. Finally, since you seem to like virtuosity and metal, here are a few suggestions from the playlist to try out. You may already know of these and have them, so forgive me if I seem redundant. Some of them have members of Dream Theater in them.



Liquid Tension Experiment
Bozzio Levin Stevens
Tony Palacios
Explorers Club
Anekdoten
Yes - the album "Talk"
Djam Karet
Rush
Porcupine Tree
Opeth
The Tangent
Platypus
OSI


and not on AM, but nonetheless


The Devin Townshend Band
King's X
Stratovarius
Static-X
The Jelly Jam

Hi
 

From a fellow Dream Theater (and Tool) lover, welcome to the Moon John. If your vocabulary is any indication, you are intelligent and, therefore, will probably stick around and sample the sounds here. Don't let us old folks (45 years old here) scare you off.

(Good suggestions Spaz)

Just look what you've started....again
 

well...welcome john. i'm not going to add anything to the arguement for DT...i think the posts above me articulate the many reasons for their diminutive presence on the playlist.

i will, however, take note to your mention of being close-minded, middle -aged...etc, etc, etc.....our program director(Jim) is very open-minded, well-versed, well-traveled, remarkably ageless (as most of us are) and is always willing to put some new group to the listen test. that being said take note if you come across music you think should be included—please pass it on to his ears. there is a ton of music on the playlist "as suggested by aural moon listeners". so careful what you imply.

this is a community of music lovers that span several...le'me say that again...several age groups...with diverse taste even within this genre. we are tolerant of many opinions....but please dont start bashing the prog vets with lines like close-minded...it's sooooo....frell! it's just wrong!

be welcome...have fun...bring friends
poda

sorry Yspaz that one had me laughing out loud:D

John Galt Strikes Back (at Rick)
 

When I said "newer stuff", I meant relatively. Some stations only play music from the seventies. Yes, I know Mike Portnoy is the drummer (rolls eyes). And Transatlantic is most of the reason I have a Spock's Beard CD. I'll try not to be mad at you for being patronizing since there are so many other DT threads.

But I still feel I need to show you how ridiculous this is.

So clearly there are no problems with the quality of the band.

No problem there either.

That leaves an argument that I found in response to many of the threads, that DT isn't progressive enough. With your 6 CDs (versus my pitifully ignorant 5), especially if one is Scenes From A Memory, it should be very hard for you to deny their progressiveness.

If a concept album with ten minute songs and really wacky times signatures strewn about isn't progressive, what is? (they do have a lot of VERY progressive stuff besides that, SFAM is just the easiest example)

Now to respond to the off topic comments:

What? Among teenagers? Let's see, I know maybe a dozen people, at most, that listen to DT, not including you guys on the internet. The number of acquaintances that I know listen to Porcupine Tree: ZERO. None. At all. Take into account that I know two (2!) people who come close to being progressive rock fans, and I get a totally different picture. Maybe on the Moon, but down here on Earth (around Houston, Texas, anyway) things are a bit different. I know Radiohead fans, but no PT.

Oh wait, there was that one girl's dad, but... no, he doesn't listen to much prog anymore, so he doesn't count.

just like I realize that Yes is just a bunch of college know-it-alls, and King Crimson is just Robert Fripp noodling around on a guitar, and Peter Gabriel is just a wanna-be opera singer, etc., etc. Either way, I prefer wankfest to some of the cheesy Spock's Beard songs I know are on here any day.

and you obviously do not know 98% of younger listeners.

When did I insult younger listeners? I'm sure they would comment if they disagreed.

I'm trying to expand the music played on this station, not narrow it.

Yeah... I have no idea what that means.

I'll probably end up doing that, too. But not playing DT on a prog station just seems... silly.

The music, too, right?

I'm sorry if I seemed intolerant. It was late at night, and sometimes I enjoy writing provocative stuff to get a reaction. Your untenable position made it pretty easy, though. But it's good to see you're awake.

I hate to admit this, guys, after the comments I got about it, but I'm not really a fan of TOOL... not yet, anyway.... DT, System of a Down, and the Deftones are about as far as I've gotten into metal. Like I said, I got to DT from prog, not the other way around. Sorry to disappoint you.

Ironically, the reason I came to this station in the first place is because my last one (Delicious Agony) seemed to only play newer music, like DT, and the classics.

Re: John Galt Strikes Back (at Rick)
 

True - for some reason I should have seen that. I just can't stand that line of reasoning. Flaming is so pointless and unproductive.

After being at work, then five hours with my promising venture, I wonder why I even am responding.

Now you may have the last word.

The Last Word (TY for letting me have that, BTW)
 

Does that make it any less true?

John,

do you understand that walking into a community and insulting a lot of the people there doesn't make it very likely that they will listen to your arguments, no matter how well founded?

Hello John,

welcome to the Moon.
I am 21 and as a representative of youngsters here there is only one possible comment on your accussations of lack of open mind on Aural Moon. This comment is mega-ROTFL!
I agree that there is lot of nostalgia here, many Moonies look for the spirit of the times they were growing up in but for God's sake it's not the whole AM style. It's essence is the mix of generations, mix of spirits. That's why middle aged Moonies enjoy also Porcupine Tree, thats why I enjoy when for ex. Wishbone Ash is played. THAT is the Aural Moon.

Now strictly about DT. Again I agree with you. DT is pure prog, they are evolving but always in progressive style, every album is a bit different but Portnoy cares about the progressiveness. I consider latest release Octavarium as a perfect release for the Moon, because of it's classic prog ROCK (not metal) feel. Especially title epic, with echoes of Hackett, IQ, Neal Morse, with the beginning as in Floyd's Wish You Were Here.

BUT

We are small community, that's why we don't have to be 'politically correct' in aspect of playing what we should, what's most popular etc, so personal tastes are clue factors of what is played here. Taking that into consideration I fully constent to decisions connected with personal tastes of AM bosses because even if I don't share this point of view in given situation (and as I said I consider DT prog) they are doing such a marvellous work here that such matters are absolutely 'excusable'. So I'd like Octavarium here but if it's not I'll request sth different and thank AM crew for their great work.

BTW. I see grain of truth in the arguments against DT on AM because of their show-offish way of playing. It irritates me too (I don't like Awake). But they have quite many compositions in which there is great, 'tempered' progressive rock. I highly reccommend Octavarium as a release for the Moon (maybe apart form opening track ;) ).

So to sum up, you wanted to provoke. Miss. As we here say the bullet is in fence.

Oh, and Brother Galt, if you're around today (Wednesday) and are trying to request, don't think we've banned you. Wednesdays are request-free.

not another DT rehash
 

Does anybody find it a tad ironic that "John Galt" is preaching that others change their ways? Here's a quote from John Galt in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged: "I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine."

So now I must ask: "who is John Galt"? :)

Clarification (This Is John Galt Speaking)
 

When I said "Does that make it any less true?" I was referring to the conspicuous absence of DT, NOT all the intolerant, insulting remarks I made. The purpose of that was to get your attention (it was fun to write, too). If I actually believed that stuff I wouldn't still be here. The bullet may be in the fence, but I have the person I was shooting at's attention.

Then again, maybe that wasn't necessary. But it was fun to write.

Thank you, MrMagoo, for asking that. But I do seem to remember him making a 3 hour long speech TO OTHER PEOPLE. You could almost say he was "preaching that others change their ways." Or maybe I should just change my name to Ellsworth Toohey.

Re: Clarification (This Is John Galt Speaking)
 

you enjoy insulting people that you don't even know? now that is disturbing. hopefully youth as a whole don't follow your lead. :(

Proverbs 17:28
 

Hi there everyone!

It's me, Moses. I'm just posting because I haven't in a while, although I've been reading faithfully. I really have nothing to add to the thread that hasn't already been said, except...

Welcome to the Moon, John!

No wait, that's been said also. :D But not from me. So there it is.

Usually what I do when I don't have anything to add to a thread but I want to post anyway is hijack it. So...

Remember that time I brought up punctuation in a thread hijack? That was funny, but with a sad ending. But now it's happy again. :cool:

First thing that came to mind. Discussion on this topic need not ensue, unless it wants to. It was in the Yngwie thread, I believe.

A perfect (and slightly conceited) realm of my imagining
 

I wouldn't say I enjoy insulting people I don't even know... although that may be a side affect... more that I enjoy writing fiery propoganda every once in awhile. It's not very often that I have a good cause (excuse) for writing it, though.

Unfortunately youth as a whole don't follow my lead... but think, if they did, progressive rock would be as popular (or more so) as in the seventies, and Britney Spears would be the leader of some dying underground pop movement. Prog (including Dream Theater, but not Spock's Beard ;) )would replace country on the radio, and the world would enter a golden age of knowledge and enlightenment such as has never been seen. All in all, not such a bad place.

See, I can write happy propoganda, too. :D

Re: A perfect (and slightly conceited) realm of my imagining
 

The progressive movement is better than at any time, including the 70's. It's fallacy that prog is the "anti-pop". As a percentage of what is listened to, talked about, etc, it's very popular.

Every generation has their Britneys. Top 40 and the like was still the predominant music back then, and even country. All of that has no effect on the popularity of prog.

Underground pop movement? That's an oxymoron. Try to understand that you will never change what sells. Just enjoy what you enjoy. Who says it would be better if prog was played on the radio. Then what? Prog top 40?

Who really cares about the popularity of things, John? Just relax and enjoy it, and don't live in a pretend world where you are the king of pop culture. I don't care who is the "best" drummer,etc.

I would never play a tune on my show based on sales. But, I'll happily play pop and lighter music is it's what I like, and I have an ear out for others.

I dislike country music, but I wouldn't want it replaced. If others like it, so what?

We are in a golden age. Open your eyes and enjoy it.

Re: Re: A perfect (and slightly conceited) realm of my imagining
 

Ah, but do we not often NOT play a song on AM if it's TOO popular? :D

Re: Re: A perfect (and slightly conceited) realm of my imagining
 

I do. It's very frustrating when you can't buy your favourite CD's in the city and have to wait till late night to hear prog music in the radio. If not AM...

Re: Re: A perfect (and slightly conceited) realm of my imagining
 

There are a few elements that support this: the progressive rock festivals, the internet, the internet radio movement, the sheer number of albums being released. These all give the "illusion" that the movement is flourishing.

That said, I disagree that the progressive movement, which had its ties in social and political concerns and affected music beyond rock, is stronger now than when it began.

festivals - while several/year, most attract just a few hundred attendies.

internet - even the largest forums have just a smattering of ACTIVE participants. And a lot of these progressive rock forums have many of the same people.

internet radio - even one of the best stations on the net only has a limited appeal (a few hundred listeners). Many other "prog rock" stations are lucky to have 20 listeners.

# of albums - Every garage band and "one-man band" can find an audience given the internet. This "indie" approach gives the impression there are a gazillion albums being released today. To an extent this is true. There were at least 1,000 progressive related recordings released in 2004. But how many of those does anyone own? Most of those 1,000 recordings will be lucky to sell 500-1,000 units over the next 5 years.

Don't get me wrong. I'm grateful there is even an audience out there. Interest does generate support. Support generates interest. But the movement itself is still very, very small.


- Cozy

agree......but
 

with the proliferation of many other options, everyone's market share dwindles. "Regular" TV has shrunk, for instance. Not only is there cable TV, there are many other media sources since the 70's. We shouldn't forget that crucial element.

I suppose it's like comparing to inflation, if you get my meaning.

I don't suscribe to "movements", I just meant the interest level. I'm not a big "movement" guy. In fact, I dislike the tie-in from other things to music.

By pure #'s, the progressive movement is indeed lower. And maybe even as a comparison by share to other music, it's about level (pop being the majority, country a lot, etc). But it's comparatively as strong as it ever was.

There's just more activity to occupy one's time these days.

(I must be old... life w/o the net...cable..etc..wow)

re: dream theater
 

Well, I'm not sure how this ties into Dream Theater. DT is certainly not "new". I've been listening to the band when you were still trying to figure out what 2+2 meant. :D

To a degree though, your point has merit. Many of the new bands are retro, devoted to capturing the style of the 70s bands. Other new bands are playing in a style that captures modern sound and technique, but still very much tied (and somewhat dependent) on those same 70s bands. When new bands defy the concept of emulating classic 70s bands, they will alienate some of the community. Shit happens.

There is nothing wrong with that. But there are several of us that do seek new music out. I am a DJ here (Interzone) and have a collection of several thousand albums, and I set my own personal "constraints" pretty broadly. That said, I feel no need to defend just where I set them.

And while I consider my particular tastes to be fairly broad, I don't criticize others if they prefer to set limits to what they wish/don't wish to hear. My show, however, is largely dedicated to those who wish to hear something beyond what they know. I play a lot of familiar and not familiar bands, and play a hell of a lot of jazz. I'm pleased to say that the reception has been great and very open-minded. Which leads me to one conclusion...

....even the close-minded prog fan is usually more open-minded, or at least "receptive" than most music fans. And the Aural Moon regulars are a testament to that. They don't deserve to be labeled as close-minded.


Ironically, you've said this as you've dove into your dad's collection. ;)



- Cozy

Re: agree......but
 

I've mentioned numbers a lot on various forums because a lot of people have the perception that a certain album sells 50,000 units, when in fact it sold 10,000. And ones they think sell 10,000, sell 1,000, and many not even that.

A festival that ran out in LA (10 million + several million in outlying areas) "ProgFest" couldn't even bring in 500 people in 2000, with a great lineup (Banco, Kenso, etc).

But the internet can change our perception to just how popular the movement is as we immerse ourselves deeply into the minutia of the concepts of progressive rock. Now we can talk to a bunch of people who actually know who The Flower Kings are!

Most of these festivals, albums, etc are all being market to the same several thousand fans over and over and over again. Only a handful of albums each year are recognized much outside that small fanbase.

Within that constraint, yes I agree that the movement is alive and well (though maybe in need of a little shakeup).


- Cozy

Re: Re: agree......but
 

Good point.:cool:

Re: re: dream theater
 

Exactly! I've said this many times in many threads. What frustrates me is that when a new band actually does something NEW in the prog field, such as Godspeed You Black Emperor! or Tortoise or The Mars Volta, they get a very polarized reaction. Some people LOVE what they do and some simply HATE it. But these bands rarely get good reviews by prog circles because, while being influenced by 70s art rock bands, they don't practically worship them. More often, they don't get ANY reviews because they're not on the dozen or so "prog labels." See, even prog is commercial. There's great prog going on out there, but it's not being called prog for two reasons. #1, prog is a bad word in music criticism so when a label gets a good prog band they promote them as anything but. #2, Prog has become as hackneyed and commercial as anything else. You have to sound "prog" to be on a prog label. When's the last original sounding prog album come out of the dozen or so established prog labels? They are few and far between. It's easier to put out mix-n-match bands of the same musicians reshuffled over and over than to take a chance on something new. What we end up with is not bands that are influenced by 70s prog making new fresh prog. What we get is clones - Citizen Cain wants to be Gabriel-era Genesis so band they can't stand it.



Yep, and when prog bands do get noticed out there, who are they? Invariably they are the ones not on traditional prog labels - i.e. bands that aren't trying to fit into a "prog mold." For instance, Sigur Ros has a song in the climax of the movie The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou. Ever seen Isildurs Bane or Transatlantic on a movie soundtrack? The Mars Volta sold out the Tabernacle in Atlanta. Most prog festivals draw no more than 500. Once Rush, Yes, and King Crimson call it quits, the biggest prog bands in the world will be Dream Theater and The Mars Volta, and prog fans generally don't accept them because they didn't follow the approved prog-road-map to success (I daresay DR and TMV are bigger than KC and Yes already).

...rant over..., man I am gonna hear it for this...:confused:

Re: Re: re: dream theater
 

Not so, I agree with everything you said (especially the Citizen Cain part).

The only thing I disagree with you about is the quote above. I submit, as Townsend says (and Entwistle sings) in 9:05 "everything I do has been done before".

There's nothing new about those bands, really. TMV polarizes people because of the vocals and the frenetic pace of the music. It's the same reaction as Gentle Giant used to get or in my personal case, Peter Nicholls' voice.

In other words, they love or hate it it because of the style, not the lineage. The lineage is the case to the casual listener maybe, and certainly appliciable to pop hair band metal, but not as much prog anymore.

Godspeed isn't really doing anything not tried before. Some people dislike it because it takes them an hour and a half to watch 60 minutes.:eek:

Re: Re: re: dream theater
 

This leads to something I've said for a few years now...

"Progressive" is a dangerous word. It has an everyday dictionary meaning, and usually used in a positive context. When you apply that as an adjective to describe music, it implies that the music is "more advanced". To take it one step further, this leads to a lot music snobbery, a perception by the media that the fans of prog (and some of the artists) have a superiority complex. I'm sad to say that I think this perception has a stong basis in reality. While it's great how open-minded prog fans can be, their disdain for most commecial endeavors is quite prevalent.

See, we've set a standard that is impossible to meet. We want progressive rock to remain progressive. We often scathe bands who sound too much like another band. This "higher standard" has its pitfalls, because most of the music labeled as "progressive rock" are NOT progressive in that sense of the word. And the ones that are a little bit more original in their approach aren't necessarily actually "progressive" in thought and sound.

Personally, I try avoiding using the word as an adejective. Most people use it as a catchall, or misuse it in a way that is synonmous with words like "creative", "experiemental", "innovative", etc. This can lead to Mozart, John Coltrane, Bartok, and Evan Parker being labeled as progressive and being lumped in with Yes, Genesis, and ELP.

Maybe that is important for some, but it feels fairly arbitrary to me. I like music with guitar, but I wouldn't classify music from all different genres (rock, pop, jazz, classical, etc) and call music that sounds nothing alike "guitar music", if you get my drift.

Truth to me is that it's a name that some people way back when slapped onto some band like Yes and ELP and it stuck. "Progressive Rock" means to me basically th expansion and exploration of rock music beyond what was, at the time, a fairly simplified expression. So even a band like Citizen Cain is progressive rock to me because they are playing beyond the basic conventions of rock.


It makes for interesting discussion anyway... ;)


- Cozy

Re: Re: Re: re: dream theater
 

Yeah, I agree with that. Progressive rock no longer means rock that pushes the boundaries, but rather rock that pushes the boundaries + rock that follows in the steps of those who pushed the boundaries. I actually think Citizen Cain is decent, just cloner. I'd never buy their stuff because if I want that sound, what's gonna beat Selling England by the Pound? I just get frustrated that when a band DOES push the basic conventions of rock (including standard prog as "basic conventions" now), they get little airing amongst prog circles. For all intents and purposes, Post Rock is the prog rock of the 90s. It'd never been done before, it was fresh, it broke rules, and it pushed boundaries. Prog grew from a disdain of pop and a love of classical and jazz. Post's roots are implied in its name: it grew from a disdain of pop and a boredom of the punk and hard-core of the 80s. Punk led to post-punk and hard-core led to post-core. Post-punk and post-core sort of combined and led to post-rock, an experimental and boundary pushing music that dominated the underground of the 1990s. In other words, the prog community completely missed the truly "progressive rock" of the 1990s and lots of it today.

They've become a slowly devolving oligarchy.


...Spaz takes cover from the impending volleys of anti-Spaz ordinance...





P.S. Rick, I see your arguments about the divide over Godspeed and Mars Volta. Per GYBE!, I guess some of us simply like funereal tempos (read: my love for Tarentel). Per Mars Volta, the thing about his voice kind of makes Mars Volta a textbook case of the argument outlined above. Mars Volta goes back to At the Drive-In. If you listen to the progression (there's that word), on AtDI's first album, they were simply a really good punk/core band, screeching vocals and all. But they got increasingly complex and experimental to the point that the final album as AtDI, "Relationships of Command," was what could be called "proggish punk/core." Their drummer and bassist were fed up with it, the band split, and the two pushing "our way" formed The Mars Volta, while the other two formed some already forgotten punk band. So, now we have a truly original prog band pulling from their various international backgrounds, with a wailing post-punk vocal style. Quite simply, it's compelling and provacative music (and FRESH), and there's nothing like it. I hate that his voice is an issue for some folks, because it grows on you, and if you like it, you're treated to some phenomenal playing.

Anyway, if you see my argument, here we've got a prog band that doesn't sound like <insert classic prog/kraut band here> and the prog community as a whole doesn't know what to do with it.



Wow, that's a really long P.S.


P.P.S., I've got nothing against you or your opinions, Rick. Anyone who lauds King's X can't be a bad guy (Sept. 27th marked on calender :D).

Re: Re: Re: Re: re: dream theater
 

Are they at it again! The only band I'd see alone. Maybe except for Devo:p

By the way, there will be a Kx song this week on the Scale....


how many re:'s can we get?:D

re: all of the above (pun meant)
 

this thread has really turned into a very interesting discussion...thank you John for fueling the fire...you even brought moses out again...

i've lots of head nodding in agreement on several points. in particular, i will agree with cozy on the said snobbery of the "average" progressive listener. as a personal defense to my own musical taste—which can go from Bach to Boncé, Wagner to Sarah Vaughan, Debussy to Sheik Yerbouti and lots more inbetween...what i choose to hold dear and near to my ear, as well as spend my hard earned cash on is going to fall within the prog parameters. my sisters often wondered why i so seldom invested in the R&B records back in the day(quoting them "she likes weird music")...hell i could hear that anytime(still can) or borrow theirs. i spent my money on music that wasn't going to be played by the top 40 am/fm stations and may well dissappear if i didn't capture it...i love classical, i love prog, i love avante garde, i'm an ambient-baby, with an insatiable taste for jazz both old, new, avante, fused and undefinable...and that still doesn't cover it. so close-minded would never descibe me, and if it makes me a snob so frellin be it.

i think we all crave to be individual and not just 1 of the masses, i don't mind being part of this smaller group because here i can be indivdual w/out having to defend or make reason of my musical choices. funny... i don't think i'd ever want this music to become as popular as "popular" music...i think it's very niche is what keeps it evolving, fractating(yeah i made it up—you get my meaning) and reconfiguring itself into new, newer or familiar forms. to have it accepted and become the music of the majority masses would kill it...long live prog!

okay my two cents turned out to be a nickle:rolleyes:

p.s. as for TMV vocals, well i like 'em and its taking a minute, but the same can be said for peter hammill, GG and a few other unusual vocal quality voices...love the delivery though...keep talkin. this was fun reading.

poda:cool:

a "post-" post
 

Now that I've been brought out... :eek: Whatever that means... ;)

Yesspaz talked a whole bunch about post-punk and post-core and post-rock. This got me to thinking... Is anyone currently making "post-prog?" Would this be (under a different name) the stuff that we call prog that really doesn't draw too much from the prog roots, or would it be a band who got bored with prog (I know, BLASPHEMY! :D ) and struck out in some new direction?

Or maybe those two are one and the same, now that I think about it. To keep in line with the thread, maybe Dream Theater is post-prog.

Rush and Enchant, anyone? ;)

First, I like DT's SFAM and some of their other stuff. Is it prog? Well, sorta. It's only a label, so who cares? Others in this thread have done great work discussing the fine points of prog, and open minds -- much better than I could. BTW, I also like many kinds of music. This morning, Yo Yo Ma is in my car's CD player, along with Bozzio-Levin-Stevens, Collective Soul, and Clepsydra. My wife has sung dozens of classical pieces with full orchestras (she's not wild about DT but loves Metallica, Judas Priest and White Zombie, to name just a few from one genre). The best thing about the AM community is the openness of its members.
My problem is this: JG's "firey propaganda" started this whole discussion. Not a good way to start things. Unfortunately, however, it worked, and I can see JG is proud of this fact.
These tactics work much the same way as negative political campaigns, not by changing minds, but by inflaming those who are already convinced.
But the fact that something works fall far short of making it right.

In a way, I think it backfired. Sure, it's a shame when an intelligent discussion/debate can't stand on its own because someone refuses to discuss things rationally. But in the end, cooler heads prevailed and the end result was an interesting thread.


- Cozy

Good point, cozy.

Re: re: all of the above (pun meant)
 

This is something I started to comment on above (no offense, Poda.), but didn't because I'd already gone long. I think one of the reasons some bands like GYBE!, Sigur Ros, The Mars Volta, and King's X aren't accepted wholesale by prog circles is because they are accepted "out there." Once a band breaks out, they're no longer "our babies" and we don't like that. This happens in almost every single genre of music. Legions of underground fans run grass roots campaigns to get their little genre bands in the mainstream, and the second that they do then can't help but feel ambivalent about it. Their excited the band is making it big(ger), but they also feel a sense of loss and elitism.

I remember liking an idie band called P.O.D. back when nobody knew of them. I even knew enough to make it to a little club in Birmingham (when I still lived in Jackson) called The Crush, because P.O.D. had just signed with Atlantic records after three indie albums. Atlantic threw four CD release parties where $10 got you in the door and a copy of the fourth album (first on Atlantic). One was in the Ham. There were probably 300 people there. Six months later, P.O.D. had the #1 rock single in America, "Rock the Party (Off the Hook)" with a video on MTV's TRL. All of a sudden all my college buddies were like, "whoa, Spaz, have you heard this new band P.O.D.? This is a such a great band." They thought they'd made some great discovery. Yes, I was happy P.O.D. made it, but at the same time I felt a sense of loss because I was no longer part of that elite that helped get them there.

This might be a part of what is going on with bands like Sigur Ros and The Mars Volta. With the exception of Yes and Rush, anybody who can sell out The Tabernacle in Atlanta (Mars Volta) or open for Radiohead (Sigur Ros) or get used in a joke on Homestarrunner.com (GYBE!) is just too popular for most prog fans' tastes. We like to think we're the only ones who can appreciate these bands, and as soon as we see others doing so, we stop.

never Yesspaz
 

no offense taken Yesspaz...so now i pose this question?

in theory does the sound change and loose it's flavor once it's tasted and accepted by the mass majority...or does the listener do a knee-jerk reaction now that "their" band is everyone's band and throw the baby out with the bath water? is there conformity of the group to the mass or the mass to the group?

"the spice must flow"
poda

p.s. does homestar really meantion G!YBE?:D ...haven't read that one and i know max wont get it.

:cool:

Re: never Yesspaz
 

Probably a little of both. TMV definitely didn't conform to the masses, the masses conformed to them. Same with Sigur Ros. But with Porcupine Tree, their popularity increases the less prog they become. Depends on the artist would be my guess.

And yes, Homestarrunner.com mentions GYBE! is a very secretive Easter Egg. I'll try to find the link and add it here.

Re: never Yesspaz
 

Probably a little of both. TMV definitely didn't conform to the masses, the masses conformed to them. Same with Sigur Ros. But with Porcupine Tree, their popularity increases the less prog they become. Depends on the artist would be my guess.

And yes, Homestarrunner.com mentions GYBE! is a very secretive Easter Egg. I'll try to find the link and add it here.
Strong Sad's Blog is the place. Make sure you go through all the pages. Start at the bottom.


P.S. this is a cool one from there, C&P:

posted at 12:01am
current mood: more humbled than usual
current tunes: my own remix - The writings of Gregor Mendel read over some old Brian Eno stuff