Sciences on Moon

[jtmckinley]

Medicine is definitely a science. It's certainly not fully mature in the sense that it can cure all ills, but medical research is very much science. M.D.s on the other hand are sometimes quacks. Most M.D.s are responsible and are trying their best to heal their patients given the tools they have to work with. Some doctors are more skilled/smarter/harder working than others and so one doctor's best will be better than another doctor's best. Also doctors are just humans so they have good days and bad days like the rest of us.

I guess for medicine to be a fully mature science it would need to be able to cure all disease as well as cure death. This may happen some day. For example it may be possible to some day design little nanobots that will float around in our bodies and fix things at the molecular level ensuring our health and immortality (barring catastrophic accidents like a fatal car crash or falling off a cliff). Obviously we're not there yet.

However, I don't really think it's fair to criticize the medical profession because they haven't gotten everything figured out yet. Most of the folks in the medical profession are working very hard to try and develop new treatments and heal their patients. Sometimes the side effects of the cure are worse than the disease and sometimes M.D.s have no choice but to try experimental treatments simply because there is no known treatment for a particular ailment. In that case it's up to the patient to decide if they want to be treated or not. To my knowledge nobody today is forced to undergo medical treatment of any kind (except maybe children since their parents have legal rights over them). One always has the option of refusing treatment and living with the symptoms of the disease, or if the disease is fatal, dying (assuming some self-righteous jackass of a politician doesn't pass some law preventing one's choice).

On the other hand, I certainly think it's worthwhile for people to get a 2nd or even 3rd and 4th opinion before they agree to a particular treatment. As I said above, some doctors are better than others and do a better job of keeping up to date on the latest treatments and sadly a few others are just quacks. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult for us laymen to know which doctor is better, but I think the more information you have the better. As for the cost of medical treatment, that's a completely separate issue from medicine as science IMHO and gets into the question of whether there should be nationalized (or even globalized) health care and whether that would result in better care overall.

[Lady Roxelle]

Before all, I want to thank you Avian, for placing this stunning wallpaper! I think it´s so inspirating, don´t you?

Yeah, moonies, the discussion grew and grew, and look what we have now!
Why Medicine has brought to table for discussion? I think its very opportune, and maybe inconsciently you mooners, has taken the subject of the 21th century, the "Book of Life"...our bodies, and that´s why this science is so noble.

SO great thoughts, jtmckinley, about Medicine. I agree you, Medicine is a science - and what a science! Medicine is a science as another one, and englobes others sciences on its way to understand this reality. So, as we experienced here, there´s a lot of misunderstooding about what Medicine really IS - and what is supposing to be.
In truth, is necessary to be said, medics is not so reliable as they should be - accourding Vernon Coleman, medics should use a warning about its hazardous effects to health. At least, this is what the majority of the people think about them. But is also true, everybody need them. I think that at this point, we can rally see the difference between the medicine of today and the ancient medicine. See the traditional chinese medicine, they use the same resources than 3,000 years ago. On the other hand, the ocidental medicine has evolved a lot. As pharmacology- biochemistry student, I have another sight of this picture. I think that today, the medicine has evolved so much in question as surgeries, so it still depends of the pharmacology to "cure" the diseases, and bring health back. We know, this is not what happens. I´m sorry to say, I´m nothing compared americans or europeans pharmacologists, what really matters is money. Of course, you have your "cure", and there´s a price for this. Often we don´t see this price to pay, the collateral effects is for sure one of this prices. IMHO, I think that this question may be rethinked.
I believe if the person have a headache of some pain that´s not so persistently, the person should rest and let the natural cure process of the human body acts. Mooners, c´mon, since the pre-historical days this occurs. In the advent of civilization, the alchemy brought the way to use the drugs - all from herbs. In the great navigations, lemon and garlic were the drugstores on board. But, one day somebody has synthesized the Prunus salicina from rosacea, and the history of Medicine and drugs has changed. In my oppinion, I think that is NOT the medicine that you´re administering, but the WAY to do it. There´s a difference.
To conclude my thoughts, in this very 21th century we´re whitneses of the Biology advances. Yeah Vax, we don´t know yet what "ACGT" is for. The scientists are on their way, but it might take a lot of decades. To reach the point as shown on "Gattaca" movie, believe me, we´re so far as we´re so closer...I think, it depends on the way for looking on this matter, maybe on the time when the real searching will be the unconditional health improvement, not only money.
I have a vision - I´m aquarian and I´m visionary for nature. In this vision, the medicines could be distributted for free in each country, and the citizens might pay the taxes as they pays for the social sevice. And once needing fo some drug, the person receive it as needed. There´s some kind of this service here in SUS, the brazilian public health system, so it may be spread for all medicines, without exception.
*************ANARCHY IN PHARMACOLOGY!!! *************

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

well said jt (as I said in my priv msg to you)...and Kleber, also well done.

I win my bet..........

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by KeithieW

I win my bet..........

[RogorMortis]

I guess for medicine to be a fully mature science it would need to be able to cure all disease as well as cure death. This may happen some day. For example it may be possible to some day design little nanobots that will float around in our bodies and fix things at the molecular level ensuring our health and immortality (barring catastrophic accidents like a fatal car crash or falling off a cliff). Obviously we're not there yet.

That will mark the beginning of the end for humans - that's if the earth hasn't succumbed to pollution and lack of food ect. No death means too many humans = path to total war. And why? Well when the crib is bare the horses bite. And this will happen here unless of course science takes the right course and avoids this but I'm afraid it will be left to the politicians who can't decide on the mustard in a hot dog. So we're doomed in the long run.

[jtmckinley]

Originally Posted by RogorMortis

That will mark the beginning of the end for humans - that's if the earth hasn't succumbed to pollution and lack of food ect. No death means too many humans = path to total war. And why? Well when the crib is bare the horses bite. And this will happen here unless of course science takes the right course and avoids this but I'm afraid it will be left to the politicians who can't decide on the mustard in a hot dog. So we're doomed in the long run.

Possibly, but I doubt it will lead to our extinction, probably a lot of violence, but probably not extinction of the human species IMHO. But then I'm an optimist when it comes to that kind of thing . It will certainly change everything in the sphere of human existence. The obvious issue of overpopulation, which possibly could be handled by people only being allowed to procreate if somebody in their family dies for whatever reason (tough sell), will certainly have to be dealt with. My guess is there will continue to be death of the folks that can't afford to live forever and population growth of those that can. There will likely be much violence as a result of this, but that's not news for humans. But, perhaps a less obvious issue, if nobody dies in the future, how does the economy function? The haves will go on accumulating wealth and power and if they never die it doesn't ever get passed on to the next generation; that could be a major problem. Immortality will not happen overnight however so hopefully we'll have some time to figure out how to deal with it before depletion of earth's resources becomes too dire. I of course assume we'll have clean (solar or fusion based) energy LONG before we ever achieve immortality, otherwise peak oil is going to cause drastic changes in how we live and possibly greatly slow technological development not to mention great death and destruction from wars and famine.

I imagine that if we ever have the technology to provide immortality it will also provide the means to exist in a non-terrestrial environment and this will be the beginning of the human colonization of space. I think this is essential for the long-term survival of the human race since having all our eggs in one basket so to speak, here on the Earth, we could be wiped out by a singe meteor impact. When people live forever (or even just 1000s of years), and if space vessels can be made comfortable enough and can be made large enough to house thousands or even millions of people, travelling through space for long voyages to other planets will become reasonable to many people, perhaps even desireable. Of course that might lead to interstellar wars down the line, but it's possible that as technology (e.g. advanced molecular nanotechnology) allows humans to exist without having to scratch out a living in the hard earth and there is abundance (assuming some fascists don't take over and try to mete it out as they see fit), human nature will evolve and we won't always be at each other's throats. Obviously there's no guarantee human nature will ever evolve, but I continue to hope.

There was an interesting CSPAN program with Ray Kurzweil 11/5/2006 that discussed some of these topics that Moonfolk might find interesting, it's 3 hours long:

http://www.booktv.org/feature/index....15&schedID=457

[Methem]

Originally Posted by jtmckinley

There was an interesting CSPAN program with Ray Kurzweil 11/5/2006 that discussed some of these topics that Moonfolk might find interesting [...]

Just saw this on the USENET group alt.folklore.computers:

> Imagine the day when someone will be able to reflect back on the
> last 6000 years of composing programs. Will a.f.c still be around
> in some form?

Well, according to Ray Kuzrweil in "The Singularity is Near"
[...] we will still be around in 6000 years (at least those of us who can
survive until the technological utopia arrives around 2040). But - by
then the computers will have been programming themselves for many
millenia. Maybe the computers will have an a.f.h newsgroup
(alt.folklore.humans) where they will reminisce about the distant past
when humans still programmed them. For a laugh they might even dredge
up some 20th century code.

Hmmm.....


-Methem

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

No you don't. I just said I wasn't taking part in the rant.

I was complementing jt and Kleber for reasoned comments. I'm really not interested in anything else.

You forget who started it you.

For a guy who is a walking stockpile of jokes, quips and humorous stories, you fail to see the humor in a discussion. I've spent a lifetime with chronic illnesses and more time in hospitals than I'd want to do in 20 lifetimes. The great "science" of medicine hasn't done anything but to prolong misery; therefore, wanting to incorporate a discussion of medicine in and amongst modern sciences seems more laughable than laudable to me. Keith and Bmithra had fun with my comment. I don't see why you couldn't. A little levity now and again is the best "medicine".

Please don't turn this into another reading volumes into words taken out of context debacle.


BTW, it's compliment.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by VAXman

You forget who started it you.

For a guy who is a walking stockpile of jokes, quips and humorous stories, you fail to see the humor in a discussion. I've spent a lifetime with chronic illnesses and more time in hospitals than I'd want to do in 20 lifetimes. The great "science" of medicine hasn't done anything but to prolong misery; therefore, wanting to incorporate a discussion of medicine in and amongst modern sciences seems more laughable than laudable to me. Keith and Bmithra had fun with my comment. I don't see why you couldn't. A little levity now and again is the best "medicine".

Please don't turn this into another reading volumes into words taken out of context debacle.


BTW, it's compliment.

I have deleted my posts, and said what I needed to say to vax off line. I will not be drawn into an asinine back and forth. No one really cares to hear any vitriol, and if anyone does, you may get your entertainment someplace else.

Vax, I was trying to have a discussion, and you want to get personal. No thank you.