Your 3 fave Genesis tracks

[spedblavio]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
I think there's an alien inside of him.

LOL, you're not the only one (not admitting to it myself though).

[ivan_2068]

Rick and Roll said:

I completely disagree with Bruford "probably" over Collins.

That's the problem with my english, sometime I don't say what I exactly want.

I also agree about Bruford, he's far better drummer than Collins (and almost sure than anyone else), what I tried to say is that Collins is probably over Alan White.

that's debatable, especially when you throw Pat Moraz into the equation.

Everything we say is debatable, because our opinions carry a great percentage of subjectivity, I'm a Genesis (Gabriel/Hackett) fan, and I tend to believe their members are over anyone, I'm sure a Yes or Crimson fan will disagree, and his opinion is also valid.

the blend is what created the sound, until the Lamb, when he really started to branch out

At last one person that doesn't believe I'm crazy. When I talk about this unique blend, most people don't agree. It's funny, but even people who know about music, tend to confuse Hackett's guitar with keyboards, specially in Firth of Fifth.

Iván

My own fave Genesis album is SEBTP. I really believe the band have done NOTHING better!!!

I love the LAMB! Saw ReGenesis perform it live and it WAS AMAZING!!!!! Don't knock Tribute bands guys!!!

I like EVERYTHING up to ATTWT when my enthusiasm starts to wane (spelling?). Lots of good tracks but no Albums that FREAK ME OUT!!!!! The last album I think of as GENESIS is WAW!!! (even with the bit about MICE!)

Live, they still "Turn it on" (again) esp. with ABACAB (the track) but We're moving into the realm of SOLO Phil!!!! See previous threads for this!!!!

I'm off to s**n, man. "Moonlit Knight" has just started so........

Nite/Mornin' all!!!!

[Rick and Roll]

who thing SEBTP is the best. Anyone else?

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
who thing SEBTP is the best. Anyone else?

Looks as if we're "Still not quite sure"..........get those acorns in your sling Rick!!!!!!!!

[Argon]

I feel like I'm back in High School (era reference not age)
I think Genesis, Yes, KC, all have their place in Prog Rock. That’s what makes this musical style so great!

I prefere more of a Classical vain than the roaring guitar and fast licks. For that, I go to Dixie Dregs and Return to forever etc. I have to agree with the "Genesis blend" post though. I have seen Yes more times than any other band and they are great but Genesis seemed to put all egos’ aside (except for Peters but he was the front man) and blended some beautiful music. Having played in a Prog. band I know how hard it is to put ego's aside!

I have seen all the drummers mentioned and who is better with their prospective groups is really a more logical debate than who is a better drummer. I have heard most of these drummers (Play or sit in with) with Prog. Jazz bands and they are all awsome (Phil in Brand X, Bruford's Earthworks and White a highly sought after Session Drummer)! I would be proud to play Bass next to any of them.

When it comes to Prog. music I have a hard time with favorite songs because (to me) most Prog. Albums play like one long song. If I had to choose I think I would choose.

Supper's Ready
Selling England By The Pound
Watchers of The Sky
If I were in a different mood I would probably write down 3 totally different songs and that’s what I love about Genesis.

[Yesspaz]

My opinion on some different points:

*Yes was a guitar band over a keyboard band, if you had to go one way or the other (although they were really a blend).

*Tony Banks aligned against Wakeman? Is this even close? It might be debateable in a LONG SHOT, but if you want to put it on the line, Pat Moraz makes Banks and Wakeman combined look like a two-year-old trying to play Chopin. Banks and Wakeman can't carry Moraz's luggage.

*Agree with the Squire assessment. The only ones who are in the same league with him are Voctor Wooten, Les Claypool, Geddy Lee, and Tony Levin, with Flea, Bootsy Collins, and the guy from GG bringing up the rear.

*Hackett versus Howe? Ha! You gotta be kinding me. Howe is more versatile (classical, folk, rock, country, jazz) and plays more variety of instruments. Even in Hackett's main type of music, the classical/folk vein, Howe is incomparable. Just put Horizons up agains The Clap, Mood for a Day, or Masquerade. Please.

*Phil Collins isn't as good as Bill Bruford, agreed. However, I consistantly find myself defending the superb drumming of Alan White. White is just as good if not better than Collins. The fact is, Alan White knows how to play the music very well. But believe me, he's not some "weak link" in Yes. Listen to Tales, Relayer, GftO, Drama, Talk, and songs like Dreamtime. Ask ProgDirJim about Release, Release!

*Anderson over Gabriel - next.

*Most underappreciated guitarist? I'd say Hackett gets plenty of props. The most underappreciated guitarists in my opinion are Tony Palacios, Neal Schon, Mike Oldfield, and Peter Banks.



And finally, a question: Are Phil Collins and Bootsy Collins related?

[Rick and Roll]

Nice reference to Victor, Bootsy, Les, and Flea - giants of the bass.
Percy Jones ain't so bad either.

Foul! Using Pat Moraz as a comparison is bogus. He was with Yes for what, a studio + a live? I remember him more for his great solo record (self-titled?) back in that era, or his stuff with Bruford. Sure he's more talented than the others. But he's not a long-term member.

To pick between Hackett and Howe is insulting to both guitarists. How do you measure better? Two different styles. I'll tell you what - neither of them can sing worth a lick. Anyway, I'm sure they sat around when they were in GTR and had this debate (tongue so firmly planted in cheek that it is stuck there).

I already had my say with Nick Mason - don't get me started on Alan White. Your boys already kicked him out of the band once.

Including Neal Schon is like including Eddie Van Halen. It's not what you can do, it's what you do.

The Collins boys could be related - Phil loves Motown. Actually, their mother is Judy Collins (I've seen this prog from both sides now).

I got an idea - how about a celebrity deathmatch? My teenage son already does this.

[Argon]

Well if you can mention Neal for Guitar then I would have to say Jaco was one of the most naturally talented Bass players I have ever seen or heard and since Weather Report is on the Playlist Jaco tops the list. Any Bass Player who uses a pick (We know who they are) is disqualified from my list.

Steve is no doubt the driving force behind Yes but without Wakeman they just don't sound like Yes to me. I don't think Maraz's Jazz influenced style worked as well with Yes (and Steve) as Wakeman's Classical style( I have seen them live with both). I also owned Maraz's solo work and enjoy it but I find it hard to compare him to Wakeman they are just too different to me.

[Rick and Roll]

Cue the music, here comes Clint Eastwood:

The Good: I forgot about Jaco - what a talent!

The Bad: I always thought that Yes was defined by Squire and Anderson.

The Ugly: A low blow against Mr. Squire! You do get points for a very funny remark, however.

I can see initially where you feel that Moraz was not a good fit, but look at Relayer - Gates is still a great concert piece, and one of their best songs, and To Be Over is a beautiful tune (Howe shines on this!) - they're good fits. It's too bad Sound Chaser is such a disjointed mess - even the intense Moraz/Squire jam at the end can't save it.

I always found Squire's solo record neat, with Moraz and Bruford together.

[Yesspaz]

I believe Neal Schon can be included in this discussion, whereas Eddie Van Halen cannot. My evidence: The Auralmoon playlist. You'll find three and a half Journey albums and one Neal Schon solo double-album (with more of each on the way..., probably ) But where's the Eddie? NO WHERE! So yes, it is what you do with it, and while I'll admit that the majority of Schon's output has nothing to do with Prog, a lot does.

Oh, and I forgot a little of the Santana that's here.






Alan White Rules.

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
My opinion on some different points:

*Agree with the Squire assessment. The only ones who are in the same league with him are Victor Wooten, Les Claypool, Geddy Lee, and Tony Levin, with Flea, Bootsy Collins, and the guy from GG bringing up the rear.

Jaco Pastorius (as someone mentioned), Stanley Clarke, Billy Sheehan, Stuart Hamm should be on the list. I would put Squire around 5th - behind Wooten and 4 of my 5 (Hamm just below Squire).

*Hackett versus Howe? Ha! You gotta be kinding me. Howe is more versatile (classical, folk, rock, country, jazz) and plays more variety of instruments. Even in Hackett's main type of music, the classical/folk vein, Howe is incomparable. Just put Horizons up agains The Clap, Mood for a Day, or Masquerade. Please.

Howe's pretty amazing, and is probably better than Hackett, but more versatile? No way. (Horizons is certainly not the peak of Hackett's playing - it's famous for being a nice melody, not for a showcase of ability.) Listen to all of Hackett's, what is now, 15 solo albums, then tell me Howe's more versatile.

*Phil Collins isn't as good as Bill Bruford, agreed. However, I consistantly find myself defending the superb drumming of Alan White. White is just as good if not better than Collins. The fact is, Alan White knows how to play the music very well. But believe me, he's not some "weak link" in Yes. Listen to Tales, Relayer, GftO, Drama, Talk, and songs like Dreamtime. Ask ProgDirJim about Release, Release!

Alan White is an awfully good drummer, but I still don't think Collins gets the credit he deserves. And I'm not convinced Bruford's better, though I wouldn't argue it either way. And Bozzio is simply amazing - I did see UK with Bozzio, and I'm just now getting my jaw closed!

*Most underappreciated guitarist? I'd say Hackett gets plenty of props. The most underappreciated guitarists in my opinion are Tony Palacios, Neal Schon, Mike Oldfield, and Peter Banks.

Yesspaz turned me on to Tony Palacios. I can't say anything about the rest of his work, but the solo album we have on AM is killer. Amazing playing and compositional skills.

Ah well, this is what makes it fun - we can all have different opinions. And there's so many amazing musicians out there - the fun is in new discoveries rather than arguing over who's better than whom...

[Rick and Roll]

I'm glad you saw fit to leave the alone the Howe vs. Hackett debate - maybe we should all do that. And I'm also happy that Pat Moraz can be left out for comparative purposes. But I never said that Neil Schon doesn't have prog roots (even though Santana is no more prog than Cream, Sabbath, Zeppelin, etc.) Look, I know that Journey had Steve Smith too (love that Players CD he was on with), but the music's just rock, nothing more. And are we forgetting that abysmal HSAS thing that Neal did? I hope he does.

If it's on the AM playlist it is not nec. prog.

My single point is that technicially proficient guitarists are not always equivalent to prog greatness.

Jim, that was Argon on the Jaco mention - and don't have a heart attack - but I agree with your picks! I would also include Jeff Berlin in there. And Doug Wimbish is very underrated (although not the equal of the aforementioned).

Guitarists are the hardest to debate and classify. I do agree 100% with Jim about Hackett - but I can be wowed by Vai, Montrose, Satriani - it depends on the mood.

I used Alan White's name instead of Tony Kaye. The publisher deeply regrets the error (although the only thing he rules is the Kingdom of Boredom). He's good, though.

Please feel free to get the last word. That's enough for me.

[Argon]

Jaco Pastorius (as someone mentioned), Stanley Clarke, Billy Sheehan, Stuart Hamm should be on the list. I would put Squire around 5th - behind Wooten and 4 of my 5 (Hamm just below Squire).

Now theres a line up! Drop Squire and add in Rick Laird. I don't mean to be so down on Squire, I like him with Yes but he plays too much like a guitar player. I see lots of licks following Howes but he just lacks style too me. Not to mention THE PICK Using a pick limits the sounds you get out of your instument and the touch and it really comes out in Squires ratt-a-tatt- tatt style. In fact Bass players don't call it a pick, they call it a crutch.

What was the name of that Band Billy put together awhile back? I saw them in Frisco (they were great) but I forgot the name.

Alan White is an awfully good drummer, but I still don't think Collins gets the credit he deserves. And I'm not convinced Bruford's better, though I wouldn't argue it either way. And Bozzio is simply amazing - I did see UK with Bozzio, and I'm just now getting my jaw closed!

I saw Bozzio with Zappa and he is absolutely incredible! While we are on it Ansley Dunbar is something to see live also.
I totally agree with what you said about Phil just listen to Unorthodox Behavior.
I can't make the Bruford call either.
Alan White is also an awesome drummer who I think sometimes doesn't get the credit he deserves.


Guitar Players? I don't even go there......

[ivan_2068]

Howe more versatile than Hackett? Sorry to continue with the debate, but I doubt it Yesspaz:

Voyage of the Acolyte : Progressive Rock 100%, one of the best albums in the symphonic sub-genre.

Please Don't Touch! : Amazing Lyrical album with Ritchie Havens, Randy Crawford and Steve Walsh, in the line of King Crimson mixed with pop.

Guitat Noir : Excelent rock-blues with basic string arrangements album.

A Midsummer Night's Dream : Classical instrumental album inspired by the Shakespeare play with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. MASTERPIECE

Tokyo Tapes : One of the best live albums in history, plays Genesis, Asia, King Crimson and own stuff, with by John Wetton (King Crimson, Uriah Heep, UK, Asia,) Ian McDonald (King Crimson,) Chester Thompson (Genesis) and Julian Colbeck (played with everybody.

And if you want more, there are nearly 30 more albums, each one of an excellent quality like Spectral Mornings, Defector, Bay of Kings and Highly Strung.

Even in Hackett's main type of music, the classical/folk vein, Howe is incomparable

Please, What are you talking about? Hackett playing Classical folk, sorry, that's not his main style.

About who's better, I don't know they are both in the same level but have completely diferent styles, in Genesis Hackett never tried the complex style of Howe, not because he wasn't capable, but because Genesis needed atmospheres, something in which he is the best.

Anderson over Gabriel - next

Well, we're here to disagree sometimes, and IMHO Peter Gabriel is from far the best prog' vocalist, maybe he soesn't have the vocal range of Lake or Wetton, but he sure knows how to sing,

Nobody could make 10 or 15 diferent voives (all by him) as in Battle for the Epping Forest (where he talks with himself) or Supper's Ready.

He knows how to transmit feelings like panic, desperation and claustrophobia like he did in the song In The Cage, you can almost feel the terror of being caught inside a trap, and then he transmits the fear and solitude when his brother John turns back.

Also his drama and theatrical capacity is proved in songs as Musical Box, when he turns from a 5 years old kid to an old man in love with a 5 years girl in a matter of minutes.

But, it's only my opinion.

Iván

[Yesspaz]

I don't mean to be so down on Squire, I like him with Yes but he plays too much like a guitar player. I see lots of licks following Howes but he just lacks style too me. Not to mention THE PICK Using a pick limits the sounds you get out of your instument and the touch and it really comes out in Squires ratt-a-tatt- tatt style. In fact Bass players don't call it a pick, they call it a crutch.

As a bass player, I will assert that a good bassist knows how to use both a pick and his fingers. Levin uses both, Squire uses both. He prefers a pick, but that doesn't mean he can't uses his fingers. Watch the Don't Kill the Whale video. Fingers. The only thing on the bass I've never seen Squire do is slap and pop. He knows his bass chords and uses them (average bassist: "You can play chords on a bass?!!"). As for getting different sound from a pick, you're right - it's a different sound. But if it's a good one, who cares?



I'm through with the Howe/Hackett thing. Alan White is underrated. His only "crime" was replacing Bruford. Moraz is the best keyboardist Yes ever had. Yesspaz out.

[spedblavio]

On the subject of Squire, Levin, picks and other devices, there's an interview with Levin posted in Notes From The Edge at the Yesworld site that is interesting. Apparently Levin found it a challenge to learn Squire's parts and to do justice to his sound.

This is WAY off topic, but I want to put in a plug for an album by the Gary Burton Quartet with Eberhard Weber from the late 70's called "Passenger". A rare example of a band with 2 bass players, Weber and Steve Swallow. Of course Weber had a style and sound that could easliy accomodate such an arraingment. Anyway, the first track ("Sea Journey" by chick Corea) is neat in that it features 2 very different and great bass solos from these 2 players.

It's jazz all the way, but progressive and not "fusion", and a good place to start for any prog fans wanting to expand their musical horizons in the jazz direction a step or two beyond "Hot Rats".

[Rick and Roll]

I'll look for it, thanks!

[black max]

>>>However, I consistantly find myself defending the superb drumming of Alan White. White is just as good if not better than Collins. The fact is, Alan White knows how to play the music very well. But believe me, he's not some "weak link" in Yes.


Agreed, White's biggest "crime" is that he isn't Bruford. I thought he came in and did a decent job on the Yessongs tour, though it was obvious he was still learning the music. His drumming is steady and gives the rest of the band a solid foundation to work from, though he rarely gives the "flash" that Bruford is so known for. But sometimes you don't need flash. He's a very capable drummer, though I think Collins is more creative. White did a great job on all of "Relayer," on "Awaken," "Turn of the Century," "On the Wings of Silent Freedom," the live version of "Changes," and all the tracks on "Drama," to name a few that stick in my memory. My problem with White is with some of the live "bootleg" material. On some of these tracks he sounds like he's just keeping time and trying not to break a sweat. The "Silent Freedom" track from the Wembley recording makes me want to reach into the computer and slap him into full consciousness.

OTOH, I'll defend Simon "Meat and Potatoes" King as the linchpin to the classic Hawkwind sound, and he's no better of a technical drummer than I am.

[PlayingTheFool]

1.The Musical Box
2.Supper's Ready
3.Dance On A Volcano