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  #1  
Old 03-08-2004, 10:51 AM
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fusion and prog

I've always been curious, and would like to see a discussion about it, about why the fusion and prog genres are often combined, including here.

After all, they are completely different types of music. Fusion uses jazz progressions and scales, while prog is not much more than complicated rock riffs.

For example, Yes couldn't play a jazz tune if their lives depended on it, whereas artists like Chick Corea, Al DiMeola and Stanley Clarke, who are strictly jazz musicians, often get lumped into the same prog programs as Yes.

Maybe stations like this should be called progressive rock/fusion jazz.
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Old 03-08-2004, 11:31 AM
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If we could call ourselves what we are we would be Aural Moon: The Progressive rock/fusion/new age/ambinet/modern/experimental garden.

Too long. :-) To describe us best, we just say Progressive Rock. BUt you certainly can't label us with just one genre.

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Old 03-08-2004, 12:07 PM
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Difficult one......not!!!!

Aural Moon calls itself "The Progressive Rock Garden" because that's what it is.

The VAST majority of the music on the playlist is prog rock but there are, thankfully, other genres there as well such as fusion, classical and folk.

I don't know of a single station that doesn't play at least some music that is out of thier normal remit so why should AM be any different?

Everything that is here on The Moon is here because Jim and Avian reckon that it fits in with the overall feel of the station and I reckon they've got it SPOT ON!!!! (with the possible exception of Godsp.......no Keith don't go there!!!!!
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Old 03-08-2004, 01:02 PM
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Yes, I see what you mean. I think the "overall feel of the station" is the key. While carrying a genre label may have restrictions, you don't want it to be too restrictive.

By the way, I meant no criticism of the station. I think the playlist is excellent - better than anything else around. Just wanted to get some other opinions on this.
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Old 03-08-2004, 01:04 PM
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man in the middle

Uzeb you are correct, there's a lot of rock on here, but not as much as other internet radio.

I love fusion. I often wonder why it gets lumped in with progressive, though. Must be cause it goes nowhere else.

Same with "guitar gods" like Eric Johnson, etc. Not prog, but fine here.

But basically, I don't care what's here, I skip it if I don't like it.

Hey, there's ONE Zeppelin song!

Really disagree with your statement about "couldn't playa jazz tune" etc. Musicians choose to play what they LIKE, not what they CAN.

Steve Harris is just as good as Stanley Clarke. Love them both, just play different styles. Don't sneeze on the musicians that play heavy or pop. They're talented, just do something different.

Is Phil Collins any less talented now he's completely lost his manhood?
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Old 03-08-2004, 01:08 PM
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waht makes it not prog?

What makes fusion not prog?

Progressive rock is rock that infuses "art" influences (classical, jazz, world) rather than strictly "popular" influences (country, blues). [I add "strictly" because there are definite influences of country and blues in prog, but that's not all. If that was all, we'd be discussing Eric Clapton.]

Jazz and Rock becoming Jazz Fusion is generally considered both a subgenre of jazz and a subgenre of progressive rock. Always has been?




BTW, Yes has some pretty good jazz numbers, albeit jazz fusion numbers. The opening of "Sound Chaser" is jazz fusion. "On the Silent Wings of Freedom" has a strong jazz element. Granted, none of these are pure. However, the cover of "I See You" on the first album is prime jazz and is as good as any jazz fusion song ever.
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Old 03-08-2004, 01:09 PM
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Re: man in the middle

Quote:
Originally posted by Rick and Roll
Is Phil Collins any less talented now he's completely lost his manhood?

HA HA HA, I'm freaking rolling!

KW, you are a riot!
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Old 03-08-2004, 01:36 PM
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I don't think you can really mix prog and fusion, as is being done in some previous posts. Jazz, which includes fusion, is on a whole different level than rock. There are different, more sophisticated chords and scales that are not generally used in rock. I believe that almost any jazz artist could play prog, no problem. However, I'll bet there are many many progressive rock artists who can't play jazz.

I disagree that Yes plays any jazz whatsoever. They have no training in this area and, from what I've read in their books, don't care if they ever do. If they ever did decide to play jazz, they would have to put in the years of training for it, just like everyone else does.
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Old 03-08-2004, 01:50 PM
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referee

Yesspaz that was me with the Phil comment.

While I do not agree that Yes plays jazz (I See You is a bastardized jazz sound, and Silent Wings is not jazz), you still cannot ignore the fact that everyone is talented.

To me jazz is three guys in a smoky bar, not Return To Forever. I've seen them, and even Romantic Warrior (the song) is still not straight jazz.

Spiral Architect plays metal. They have a bassist who is incredible.

Just because it's jazz means it's hard to play?

Yes does not play jazz, true - but Yes CHOOSES not to.
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by uzeb2
I don't think you can really mix prog and fusion, as is being done in some previous posts. Jazz, which includes fusion, is on a whole different level than rock. There are different, more sophisticated chords and scales that are not generally used in rock. I believe that almost any jazz artist could play prog, no problem. However, I'll bet there are many many progressive rock artists who can't play jazz.

I disagree that Yes plays any jazz whatsoever. They have no training in this area and, from what I've read in their books, don't care if they ever do. If they ever did decide to play jazz, they would have to put in the years of training for it, just like everyone else does.
wow, do we have a jazz snob here?

Jazz and progressive rock are different. It is insane to suggest that jazz is more sophisticated, more difficult to play, or somehow *better* than rock. (As a matter of fact, the primary thing that defines jazz is improvisation.) There is simple and complex jazz, and simple and complex rock. As far as musicians go, there are those very talented, somewhat talened, and hacks in both.

I remember when I was first learning how to play jazz drums, in college, I met a drummer who was very schooled in jazz. we started practicing together, and I thought I was getting so much more out of the time since I was learning so much just watching this guy play. What I soon found out is that he was learning just as much from me with my rock background.

If you listen to certain pieces of Return To Forever, as an example, and didn't know it was musicians with jazz backgrounds playing it, you would call it rock. I said prog rock and jazz are different above, and they obviously are; they also share a hell of a lot of common musical roots...
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:35 PM
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Interesting Discussion

I think it all depends on your definition of fusion. Just like the definition of progressive rock, it's different for different people.

However, one generally accepted definition is "jazz with some rock elements." Not far removed from that would be "rock with some jazz elements."

Many of the "rock" bands here on the Moon incorporate jazz elements. There are tons of examples, it would be pointless to list them all.

So it's my humble opinion that fusion certainly belongs here because "jazz-rock" and "rock-jazz" are awfully close. Kinda like "blue-green" and "green-blue" in my box of crayons.
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:57 PM
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thanks

I'm at work, and I really didn't have time to get my point across -

Thanks Moses and Jim, you both said it well.

That box of crayons reference reminds me of an XTC tune but I can't think of which one....
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Old 03-08-2004, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by uzeb2
I don't think you can really mix prog and fusion, as is being done in some previous posts. Jazz, which includes fusion, is on a whole different level than rock. There are different, more sophisticated chords and scales that are not generally used in rock. I believe that almost any jazz artist could play prog, no problem. However, I'll bet there are many many progressive rock artists who can't play jazz.

I disagree that Yes plays any jazz whatsoever. They have no training in this area and, from what I've read in their books, don't care if they ever do. If they ever did decide to play jazz, they would have to put in the years of training for it, just like everyone else does.
Just to name one, Bill Bruford is a trained jazz drummer - his drumming on Yes and King Crimson albums is very jazzy. When he joined Yes (answered an ad) he thought he was indeed joining a jazz band! Burford's Earthworks, his long-running jazz ensemble, would seem to give your theory pause.

Prog and fusion go hand in hand. Much prog dips in and out of fusion. There are certainly bands that spand both prog rock and fusion. Planet X is one.

It mixes pretty seamslessly here on AM, and a lot of other internet "prog rock" stations. The popular syndicated show "The Canvas Prog Hour" has a heck of a lot of fusion in there.

Avian
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Old 03-08-2004, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Avian


Just to name one, Bill Bruford is a trained jazz drummer - his drumming on Yes and King Crimson albums is very jazzy. When he joined Yes (answered an ad) he thought he was indeed joining a jazz band! Burford's Earthworks, his long-running jazz ensemble, would seem to give your theory pause.

Avian
And one of the reasons he left Yes was because he was getting bored. This jazz trained drummer went on to the more challenging projects with Earthworks.

Don't get me wrong. The guys in Yes are great musicians and songwriters. But they cannot play jazz.

Jazz is a whole different world of scales and chords. Usually a person has to train for years before they can play it. Ask any guitar player and I'm sure almost all will agree that jazz guitar is the hardest to play.

This is why I made the statement that many rock musicians cannot play jazz, while all jazz musicians could play rock, no problem. The improvising in rock is elementary compared to jazz.

It is true that much of the progressive rock out there has jazz elements. This is either by rock guys who have picked up a few jazz licks here and there, or it's by jazz-trained musicians who have opted for a more rock sounding style (fusion).

And speaking of drummers, Neil Peart, probably the best rock drummer in the world, stated that his tribute to Buddy Rich project was the most challenging he ever had.
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:21 PM
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From a non-player

I know I'm opening up myself here, but what's harder about jazz?

Do you play with three hands?

Do you play in Vulcan?

There is nothing physicially different. You are arguing a very strange point.

Blanket statements like that are ridiculous.
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:22 PM
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From a non-player

I know I'm opening up myself here, but what's harder about jazz?

Do you play with three hands?

Do you play in Vulcan?

There is nothing physicially different. You are arguing a very strange point.

Blanket statements like that are ridiculous.

I just saw the California Guitar Trio play Brahms last week, each of them playing every THIRD NOTE. Try to tell me what's tougher than that!
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:25 PM
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Re: waht makes it not prog?

RnR, sorry about thinking you were KW for a sec.... I have no idea....

Now, to quote myself:

Quote:
Originally posted by Yesspaz
"On the Silent Wings of Freedom" has a strong jazz element.
Never said Silent Wings was jazz. I said it had a strong jazz element - namely Alan's drumming.
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:27 PM
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that's fair

no problem, Spaz
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by uzeb2

The guys in Yes are great musicians and songwriters. But they cannot play jazz.
CANNOT is a strong word. I think my argument here stands without explanation.



Jazz is a whole different world of scales and chords. Usually a person has to train for years before they can play it.
[/quote]
Since you do agree that Bruford is an expert in jazz, how about this quote by him from the YesYears documentary about Yours is No Disgrace:
"Steve is very much in a Wes Montgomery/Jim Hall phase on that solo, always has been."

Secondly, and ex-girlfriend of mine, a trained opera soprano, was in my truck with me when I was listening to I See You, said somethin along the lines of, "Whoa, he (Banks) is playing inverted 7ths! He knows more about music that most guitarists I hear."


The improvising in rock is elementary compared to jazz.
[/quote]

Ask any jazz musician about "faking it" and see what he says.
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Old 03-08-2004, 05:30 PM
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This is crazy...........

Who gives a damn whether they can/can't play Jazz/Rock? (Delete as required)

Do you like what you hear?

Yes/No...............end of story.

I don't think that Michael Bolton can sing Opera and I don't think Jose Carreras can sing show tunes but they both released albums of those differing styles........and good luck to them. I didn't like them but I can't say they shouldn't give it a go.
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