Sciences on Moon

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

??????????

If you don't know, don't belittle. It is indeed a science.

Medicine is no science... no more a science than alchemy. All that medical research to date has proven is how little they actually know and how much farther they need to go.

I'll consider it a science the day medicine treats the cause of disease and not its symptoms.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Medicine is no science... no more a science than alchemy. All that medical research to date has proven is how little they actually know and how much farther they need to go.

I'll consider it a science the day medicine treats the cause of disease and not its symptoms.

Alchemy relates to a spiritual element. Medicine relates to the science of many things..disease treatment, causes, healing.

This is not religion vs science. Medicine is no religion. It is science.

Your opinion of the effectiveness of Medicine is no reflection on it's rightful inclusion as Science.

The main reason we know so little is that we keep introducing new issues to the the species. While it is very difficult to keep up, it is undeniable that incredible strides have been made.

If I had my heart surgery or my skin cancer treated 15 years ago, I'd be awful shape because of the improvements in the SCIENCE.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

Alchemy relates to a spiritual element. Medicine relates to the science of many things..disease treatment, causes, healing.

This is not religion vs science. Medicine is no religion. It is science.

Your opinion of the effectiveness of Medicine is no reflection on it's rightful inclusion as Science.

The main reason we know so little is that we keep introducing new issues to the the species. While it is very difficult to keep up, it is undeniable that incredible strides have been made.

If I had my heart surgery or my skin cancer treated 15 years ago, I'd be awful shape because of the improvements in the SCIENCE.

...and a lifetime with renal failure/nephritis, diabetes, gout, hypertension, and mouthfulls of tablets and injections of potions hasn't cured anything... only treated the symptoms. My son had open heart surgery. It fixed the symptoms of the problem but not its causes. My wife suffers from seisures. They're poison her with potions pretending to have a f*ing clue what they are doing but they don't know. They take tracings of electrical fields produced from the brain. BFD... they can't read her thoughts from them nor deduce what these signals ACTUALLY represent.

Watson and Crick decoded the chemisty of DNA but do we really know what the pairings of guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine mean? No. They're busy splicing genes together in the laboratory now hoping to discover what will be produced like a kid randomly mixing the chemicals from a chemisty set without a clue as to the chemical process. When there's a theory that can predict the outcome, then it will be science. The day the can tell us that the sequence of say, cytosine+adenine+thymine will produce a cat ( ), then we have science.

What irks me about medicine is that the don't know anything and for that privilege, they command big money. It's a freakin' gamble just as with the other "practiced" profession. The problem with this gambling is that it is just like Las Vegas... an empire built on the backs of losers -- or in this case, the unfortunates with medical issues.

Suffice to say, medicine is medicine... but not science.

Medicine and Science............

This is definitely one of those tweeners.

I agree that medicine treats symptoms NOT causes but the research that goes on to develop those treatments must surely be classed as science.

A dictionary definition I found for "SCIENCE" states:

science

noun

1 (Knowledge obtained from) the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical world, especially by observing, measuring and experimenting, and the development of theories to describe the results of these activities

I think that this covers medical research as well.....so you can take it either way.

I understand what Martha is going through because I suffer from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and I'm being treated by popping lots of pills that were developed in a laboratory and while the prescribing of said pills isn't scientific the development of them surely is.

Just my 2p worth.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by KeithieW

Medicine and Science............

This is definitely one of those tweeners.

I agree that medicine treats symptoms NOT causes but the research that goes on to develop those treatments must surely be classed as science.

A dictionary definition I found for "SCIENCE" states:

science

noun

1 (Knowledge obtained from) the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical world, especially by observing, measuring and experimenting, and the development of theories to describe the results of these activities

I think that this covers medical research as well.....so you can take it either way.

I understand what Martha is going through because I suffer from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and I'm being treated by popping lots of pills that were developed in a laboratory and while the prescribing of said pills isn't scientific the development of them surely is.

Just my 2p worth.

It's not a tweener. It's a science. Again, the effectiveness or cost paid is not a determinant. That's all I'm saying.

Medicine cannot fix a cause of something. Opinions cannot change the fact it's a science. The definition of Medicine states it's a science.

Rant on as you will gentlemen, I'm out. thanks.

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

I'm out. thanks.

What's the betting you'll be back.

[jtmckinley]

Medicine is definitely a science. It's certainly not fully mature in the sense that it can cure all ills, but medical research is very much science. M.D.s on the other hand are sometimes quacks. Most M.D.s are responsible and are trying their best to heal their patients given the tools they have to work with. Some doctors are more skilled/smarter/harder working than others and so one doctor's best will be better than another doctor's best. Also doctors are just humans so they have good days and bad days like the rest of us.

I guess for medicine to be a fully mature science it would need to be able to cure all disease as well as cure death. This may happen some day. For example it may be possible to some day design little nanobots that will float around in our bodies and fix things at the molecular level ensuring our health and immortality (barring catastrophic accidents like a fatal car crash or falling off a cliff). Obviously we're not there yet.

However, I don't really think it's fair to criticize the medical profession because they haven't gotten everything figured out yet. Most of the folks in the medical profession are working very hard to try and develop new treatments and heal their patients. Sometimes the side effects of the cure are worse than the disease and sometimes M.D.s have no choice but to try experimental treatments simply because there is no known treatment for a particular ailment. In that case it's up to the patient to decide if they want to be treated or not. To my knowledge nobody today is forced to undergo medical treatment of any kind (except maybe children since their parents have legal rights over them). One always has the option of refusing treatment and living with the symptoms of the disease, or if the disease is fatal, dying (assuming some self-righteous jackass of a politician doesn't pass some law preventing one's choice).

On the other hand, I certainly think it's worthwhile for people to get a 2nd or even 3rd and 4th opinion before they agree to a particular treatment. As I said above, some doctors are better than others and do a better job of keeping up to date on the latest treatments and sadly a few others are just quacks. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult for us laymen to know which doctor is better, but I think the more information you have the better. As for the cost of medical treatment, that's a completely separate issue from medicine as science IMHO and gets into the question of whether there should be nationalized (or even globalized) health care and whether that would result in better care overall.

[Lady Roxelle]

Before all, I want to thank you Avian, for placing this stunning wallpaper! I think it´s so inspirating, don´t you?

Yeah, moonies, the discussion grew and grew, and look what we have now!
Why Medicine has brought to table for discussion? I think its very opportune, and maybe inconsciently you mooners, has taken the subject of the 21th century, the "Book of Life"...our bodies, and that´s why this science is so noble.

SO great thoughts, jtmckinley, about Medicine. I agree you, Medicine is a science - and what a science! Medicine is a science as another one, and englobes others sciences on its way to understand this reality. So, as we experienced here, there´s a lot of misunderstooding about what Medicine really IS - and what is supposing to be.
In truth, is necessary to be said, medics is not so reliable as they should be - accourding Vernon Coleman, medics should use a warning about its hazardous effects to health. At least, this is what the majority of the people think about them. But is also true, everybody need them. I think that at this point, we can rally see the difference between the medicine of today and the ancient medicine. See the traditional chinese medicine, they use the same resources than 3,000 years ago. On the other hand, the ocidental medicine has evolved a lot. As pharmacology- biochemistry student, I have another sight of this picture. I think that today, the medicine has evolved so much in question as surgeries, so it still depends of the pharmacology to "cure" the diseases, and bring health back. We know, this is not what happens. I´m sorry to say, I´m nothing compared americans or europeans pharmacologists, what really matters is money. Of course, you have your "cure", and there´s a price for this. Often we don´t see this price to pay, the collateral effects is for sure one of this prices. IMHO, I think that this question may be rethinked.
I believe if the person have a headache of some pain that´s not so persistently, the person should rest and let the natural cure process of the human body acts. Mooners, c´mon, since the pre-historical days this occurs. In the advent of civilization, the alchemy brought the way to use the drugs - all from herbs. In the great navigations, lemon and garlic were the drugstores on board. But, one day somebody has synthesized the Prunus salicina from rosacea, and the history of Medicine and drugs has changed. In my oppinion, I think that is NOT the medicine that you´re administering, but the WAY to do it. There´s a difference.
To conclude my thoughts, in this very 21th century we´re whitneses of the Biology advances. Yeah Vax, we don´t know yet what "ACGT" is for. The scientists are on their way, but it might take a lot of decades. To reach the point as shown on "Gattaca" movie, believe me, we´re so far as we´re so closer...I think, it depends on the way for looking on this matter, maybe on the time when the real searching will be the unconditional health improvement, not only money.
I have a vision - I´m aquarian and I´m visionary for nature. In this vision, the medicines could be distributted for free in each country, and the citizens might pay the taxes as they pays for the social sevice. And once needing fo some drug, the person receive it as needed. There´s some kind of this service here in SUS, the brazilian public health system, so it may be spread for all medicines, without exception.
*************ANARCHY IN PHARMACOLOGY!!! *************